The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Ladodgers6]

I am sure all of you trinitarians have noticed by now, but the Trinity doctrine and all of its supporting doctrines are entirely circular in reasoning.

Did you ever notice how you all always begin with a presumption of a trinity god, you list all of your reasons why, but it always circles back to the beginning, all the way to square one, when asked where there is a working example of the trinity in action or someone at least defining the God of the Bible as three, a they, or them? Yet no one in all of history has been able to find that.

Consider the following common arguments produced by trinitarians, just to name a few:
"Jesus is a God-Man"
"Jesus is 100% man and 100% God"
"Jesus resurrected himself"
"Jesus pre-existed his birth"
"Jesus is the Word"
"God incarnated"

Yet the Bible doesn't say any of those things. There is no example of anyone saying Jesus is a God-Man, no examples of Jesus resurrecting himself or anyone saying he did, no examples of him pre-existing in the Old Testament either saying or doing anything. he was never called the Word, and the Bible never says Jesus incarnated.

Everything the trinitarian says begs the question: Why does the Bible never say what you say???

So what happened to all of these trinitarian people? What are they seeing that God, Jesus, the prophets, the disciples, and the early church didn't even talk about?

Can any one answer one or more of these questions:

Where in the Bible does anyone ever define God as three persons in one God?​

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Trinitarians claim the Trinity is central to Christianity. Why is it that there is not one example of it being taught to anyone in Acts or elsewhere in the New Testament? Why not the Old Testament?​

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Why do the inspired writers everywhere speak of God like a single person, i,e,. He, Him, His, but never as a they or them?​

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Why does terminology, or something similar, that says "Jesus is 100% God and 100% man" never appear in the Bible?​

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Why did no one say Jesus resurrected himself after he died?​

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If Jesus pre-existed as either the Word, or God, or a member of the trinity, why does the Bible never say that and why are there no examples of such in the Old Testament?​

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Why did the apostles always call Jesus "the man" (1 Tim. 2:5), "the Son of Man," or "the Son of God," but never "God the Son?"​

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If the early church really did believe in a Trinity then why were the early centuries filled with disputes regarding who Jesus was with the result not being codified into the Catholic church until the mid-to-late 4th century?​

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Why did they not agree the Holy Spirit is a 3rd member of the trinity until the late 4th century?​

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Why do Trinitarians rely heavily on extra-biblical words/phrases (Trinity, hypostatic union, God-man, incarnate, consubstantial, etc) instead of just using the words/phrases the Bible uses?​

First of all do you even know what the Son of Man & Son of God signify? I suggest you should do your homework before making arbitrary comments. Now, as far as the phrases/words Trinity, Hypostatic Union, God-Man, Incarnate, Consubstantial, Aseity, Perichoresis. Are you familiar with their teaching and can you articulate intelligently? If, not how on earth can you make a conclusion? It's exactly like asking an atheist has he/she read the Bible, and they respond with a no. Well, that's not an intelligent conclusion to make.

Let me ask you this, simple or tricks or traps. Why were the Pharisees and Scribes trying to sentenced and kill the Son of Man for? These Jewish leaders knew exactly what Christ was saying and claiming to be.

 

[JesusFan]

As @Runningman mentioned, others are spoken of as God in the bible. My phrasing was particular purposely - "God the Father" is spoken 9 times in the New Testament. "God the Son" is mentioned zero times. It's not proof of anything necessarily, but certainly interesting if Trinitarianism is true. God could have been very clear about the Trinity, and if it's a central doctrine, it odd to say the least that wasn't.

The Holy Spirit is called God, and also the Spirit of Jesus, so Jesus also must be God

 

[FreeInChrist]

As @Runningman mentioned, others are spoken of as God in the bible. My phrasing was particular purposely - "God the Father" is spoken 9 times in the New Testament. "God the Son" is mentioned zero times. It's not proof of anything necessarily, but certainly interesting if Trinitarianism is true. God could have been very clear about the Trinity, and if it's a central doctrine, it odd to say the least that wasn't.

So when God the Father refers to His Son as God in Heb 1:8 that is a non-sequitur ro you?

 

[amazing grace]

You cannot say that the Father is a person (even though He has not been conceived and born), but the Word cannot be a person until He was conceived and born. You cannot have it both ways.
If a person is not really a person unless they are conceived and born (as you said), then the Father cannot be a person. If the Father is a person, and a person can really be a person without being conceived and born, then the Word can really be a person.

I don't know what you keep going on about! This is my stance: God is Spirit and therefore, the Father is Spirit.
God was neither conceived or born. By definition, the logos is NOT a person.
IOW, Jesus does not = logos; logos does not = Jesus.

The Word was with God, and was God. To be with God means that the Word was not the same being as the other being that is God. This means that the other being that is God is either the Father, or the Holy Spirit, or both. But that doesn't stop the second part of the verse from being TRUTH: the Word is God.

And as has been pointed out, your claim is a distinction without difference. God is God, and since the Word IS God (whether equal or qualitative) the Word IS God; PERIOD.

It makes a difference whether the qualities of God became embodied in flesh in the only Son from the Father or Almighty God became embodied in flesh in the only Son from the Father - there is a clear distinction.

You said the first God was the Father. Then the definition of God in John 1:1c is changed to mean someone else --- where do you get the prerogative to do that?

I disagree that God became a human being.

That is irrelevant. The Logos of God became the man we know as Jesus, and Jesus is the Logos of God. We could use the word "Logos" everywhere we find "Jesus" in Scripture, and we can use "Jesus" everywhere we find the "Logos of God". The two are synonymous.

That doesn't mean that every "logos" is the Logos of God, nor that Jesus is every "logos".

Jesus does not = logos; logos does not = God. They are not synonymous.
logos has to do with speech, something spoken, the sayings of God, teachings, doctrine NOT A PERSON.

What does Yahweh mean? It means LORD, does it not? It is not a name, but a title, the title LORD.
Who is the LORD? Is it not Jesus (Phil 2:10-11, Acts 10:36, Rom 10:9, John 13:13)? If Jesus is the LORD, and Yahweh (LORD) was speaking from the Bush, then it was Jesus speaking from the Bush.

Yahweh is the personal name of God. It is his name forever.
Jesus was made Lord. Jesus is not Yahweh - Yahweh is his Father.
No, Jesus did not speak from the burning bush ---- God did not speak by his Son until these last days.

If that is the way you want to look at it, then you existed before Abraham, so you could be God. Do you see how absurd that is?

Jesus did not exist before Abraham only in the foreknowledge of God, or in the prophecies of God. He existed as a living being that is God.

I didn't exist before Abraham - I wasn't even a twinkle in my parent's eyes before Abraham --- that is absurd.

I disagree with you.....“By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, ...... I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” [Gen. 22]- Promise to Abraham --- fulfilled in Christ. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.......That was how Jesus was before Abraham.

Before Jesus was born as a human being, He was the Creator, the Logos of God, the LIFE and the Light that is the source of mankind and all Creation.

To each his own......

 

[Runningman]

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
In these first 5 verses John has established that there were two beings present when the Beginning occurred: the Word (Logos)(which is God, but not the same being as the other) and some other being that is also God (the Father). This is not meant to be exclusive, because we know that he Holy Spirit of God was also there.

6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.
Here we have switched gears. We are now talking about John the Baptist. But John is the forerunner for the Light (which is the same as the Word from verses 4 and 5). From this we know that the One about whom John is talking later in this chapter is the Word (which is God). And we also see yet again that everything that was created was made through the Word.

14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him.
Here we are back to talking about the Word. And now the Word has put on flesh and become a man. And we see again that John is testifying about this man. And we have Jesus identified as the man that the Word became.

19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites to him from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny; and this is what he confessed: “I am not the Christ.” 21 And so they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he *said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you? Tell us, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am the voice of one calling out in the wilderness, ‘Make the way of the Lord straight,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.”

24 And the messengers had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 It is He who comes after me, of whom I am not worthy even to untie the strap of His sandal.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing people.

29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He in behalf of whom I said, ‘After me is coming a Man who has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ 31 And I did not recognize Him, but so that He would be revealed to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 And John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”
And here John reemphasizes that Jesus is the One whom the Word became, whom He is preceding, and about whom he is preaching.

The source, not the first thing created.

Jesus was. Jesus' body was born. But His spirit is the eternal Spirit through which all of Creation was made (John 1:3).

Maybe we need to define some terms so can we be clear who or what you are talking about in your belief system.

It seems your idea of who Jesus is changes depending on the title. Please clarify who each of the following is to you. Just let me know whether or not you think each title refers to a human or to God:

Jesus Christ
The Son
The Son of Man
The Son of God
The Messiah
Lord
Alpha and Omega/the First and the Last
The Image of God
Savior
Lamb of God
The Last Adam
High Priest
Mediator
Good Shepherd
Bridegroom
Head of the church
Bread of life
Light of the world

I believe each of the titles refers to Jesus as a human.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Maybe we need to define some terms so can we be clear who or what you are talking about in your belief system.

It seems your idea of who Jesus is changes depending on the title. Please clarify who each of the following is to you. Just let me know whether or not you think each title refers to a human or to God:

Jesus Christ
The Son
The Son of Man
The Son of God
The Messiah
Lord
Alpha and Omega/the First and the Last
The Image of God
Savior
Lamb of God
The Last Adam
High Priest
Mediator
Good Shepherd
Bridegroom
Head of the church
Bread of life
Light of the world

I believe each of the titles refers to Jesus as a human.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't know what you keep going on about! This is my stance: God is Spirit and therefore, the Father is Spirit.
God was neither conceived or born. By definition, the logos is NOT a person.
IOW, Jesus does not = logos; logos does not = Jesus.

That is where your error stems from. The Logos of God is a person, as demonstrated to you many times.

It makes a difference whether the qualities of God became embodied in flesh in the only Son from the Father or Almighty God became embodied in flesh in the only Son from the Father - there is a clear distinction.

Only God possesses the qualities of God. So if the Logos of God possesses the qualities of God, then it IS God.

You said the first God was the Father. Then the definition of God in John 1:1c is changed to mean someone else --- where do you get the prerogative to do that?

I don't. Scripture makes the distinction.

I disagree that God became a human being.

Then you disagree with Scripture.

Jesus does not = logos; logos does not = God. They are not synonymous.
logos has to do with speech, something spoken, the sayings of God, teachings, doctrine NOT A PERSON.

It is much more than that. It also includes the reasoning power, the intellect, the rational thought and order. All of that is what/who Jesus is.

Yahweh is the personal name of God. It is his name forever.
Jesus was made Lord. Jesus is not Yahweh - Yahweh is his Father.
No, Jesus did not speak from the burning bush ---- God did not speak by his Son until these last days.

This again demonstrates your lack of Biblical knowledge and experience.

I didn't exist before Abraham - I wasn't even a twinkle in my parent's eyes before Abraham --- that is absurd.

God knew the full history of the Universe from before He created it. So He knew you before He created the universe. If Jesus only existed in the foreknowledge of God before Abraham, then you existed in His knowledge the same way. It doesn't matter if your parents knew you before Abraham, God did.
But Jesus did not just exist in God's foreknowledge. He existed as a Spirit there with God, participating in the Creation with the Father and the Spirit.

I disagree with you.....“By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, ...... I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” [Gen. 22]- Promise to Abraham --- fulfilled in Christ. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.......That was how Jesus was before Abraham.

You don't disagree with me; you disagree with Scripture. This is not the only way that Jesus existed in the OT, but your willful blindness and adamantine ignorance prevents you from seeing the Truth.

 

[dwight92070]

Hey, this is a good teaching on healing if anyone is interested.

Well, at least lesson one is.

It's a nine series teaching...

This sounds good, but there's two huge errors:

1. The Bible nowhere says that Jesus paid for our healing on the cross - rather He paid for our SINS.
Yes, I know, "By His stripes we are healed." The context is speaking of being healed from our sins, taken from Isaiah. Yes, I believe that He can and does heal when it's His will, but not because of the cross. God healed people long before the cross.

2. Not every Christian has gifts of healing. Nor can every Christian say that we have the same gifts that were given to the 12 apostles.

 

[Doug Brents]

Maybe we need to define some terms so can we be clear who or what you are talking about in your belief system.

It seems your idea of who Jesus is changes depending on the title. Please clarify who each of the following is to you. Just let me know whether or not you think each title refers to a human or to God:

Jesus Christ
The Son
The Son of Man
The Son of God
The Messiah
Lord
Alpha and Omega/the First and the Last
The Image of God
Savior
Lamb of God
The Last Adam
High Priest
Mediator
Good Shepherd
Bridegroom
Head of the church
Bread of life
Light of the world

I believe each of the titles refers to Jesus as a human.

Son of God - John 3:16, John 1:34, Matt 16:16, 1 John 4:15
Lord - Phil 2:10-11, John 20:28,
Alpha and Omega/First and Last - Rev 21:6, 22:13
Bread of Life - John 6:51
Light of the World - 1 John 1:5, John 8:12
These five all relate to the Deity of Jesus Christ. The rest relate to His humanity and His deity. You cannot separate Deity from Jesus without denying Him.

 

[amazing grace]

That is where your error stems from. The Logos of God is a person, as demonstrated to you many times.

That is where your error begins......^^^^^^^^^^^

Only God possesses the qualities of God. So if the Logos of God possesses the qualities of God, then it IS God.

When speaking of qualities of God I am not speaking of the OMNI's.......love, patience, graciousness, merciful, faithfulness, kindness, righteous, just, etc. are all qualities of God.

I don't. Scripture makes the distinction.

If you read the word was with God the Father then it is only appropriate that the same reading carries to the end of the verse - and the word was God the Father.....the distinction is not made in the verse - it is read into the verse.

Then you disagree with Scripture.

Nope. Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Job 9:32; 1 Samuel 15:29

Job 33:12 for God is greater than man.

It is much more than that. It also includes the reasoning power, the intellect, the rational thought and order. All of that is what/who Jesus is.

This again demonstrates your lack of Biblical knowledge and experience.

God knew the full history of the Universe from before He created it. So He knew you before He created the universe. If Jesus only existed in the foreknowledge of God before Abraham, then you existed in His knowledge the same way. It doesn't matter if your parents knew you before Abraham, God did.
But Jesus did not just exist in God's foreknowledge. He existed as a Spirit there with God, participating in the Creation with the Father and the Spirit.

God planned for a family with humanity - Adam screwed it up. Genesis 3:15 enters the offspring of the woman, Jesus, who would come and who would reconcile a people unto God. In between Gen. 3:15, rulers, authorities, rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places tried to thwart the purposes and plans God had in mind but against all odds - Jesus Christ accomplished the work he was sent to do and thus established a way of salvation and became the foundation of our faith......
What exist in God's foreknowledge is that which HAS TO BE DONE in order to bring about the KINGDOM ---- NOT EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL in the world.......Me, that was a decision made between my parents ----- I am just a speck in the concept of God's plans and purposes.

It seems that 1 Corinthians 15 disagrees with you ---- In talking about bodies - it seems the 'natural' comes first then the 'spiritual'.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable (corruptible); what is raised is imperishable (incorruptible). It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

You don't disagree with me; you disagree with Scripture. This is not the only way that Jesus existed in the OT, but your willful blindness and adamantine ignorance prevents you from seeing the Truth.

Jesus did not exist in the OT - Jesus did not preexist his conception and birth. Matthew tells of Jesus' beginning.

Go ahead and try to disparage my character if it makes you feel better. We both know there is only one truth and we can only pray that we have not been blindly lead ----- sola scriptura or doctrines of men, i.e. creeds. Thanks.

 

[Runningman]

Son of God - John 3:16, John 1:34, Matt 16:16, 1 John 4:15
Lord - Phil 2:10-11, John 20:28,
Alpha and Omega/First and Last - Rev 21:6, 22:13
Bread of Life - John 6:51
Light of the World - 1 John 1:5, John 8:12
These five all relate to the Deity of Jesus Christ. The rest relate to His humanity and His deity. You cannot separate Deity from Jesus without denying Him.

Those refer to being a human:

The Son of God is equal to the Son of Man:

John 5​

25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. 27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.​

The Lord is a human with a human mother:

Luke 1​

43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?​

Alpha and Omega/First and Last is mortal like a huamn, but God is immortal:

Revelation 1​

17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.​

The Bread of Life from heaven is the Son of Man that descended from heaven, one of Jesus' human titles in your book:

John 6​

62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?​

Light of the world has no reference to God. The disciples are also the Light of the world and they are definitively human only:

Matthew 5​

14You are the light of the world.​

So you have not shown anything that justifies why Jesus is a human one moment and then God in your belief system.

May I ask you what is your explanation for Jesus not being given all of the divine names/titles of God?

 

[Doug Brents]

That is where your error begins......^^^^^^^^^^^

When speaking of qualities of God I am not speaking of the OMNI's.......love, patience, graciousness, merciful, faithfulness, kindness, righteous, just, etc. are all qualities of God.

If you read the word was with God the Father then it is only appropriate that the same reading carries to the end of the verse - and the word was God the Father.....the distinction is not made in the verse - it is read into the verse.

Nope. Numbers 23:19; Hosea 11:9; Job 9:32; 1 Samuel 15:29

Job 33:12 for God is greater than man.

God planned for a family with humanity - Adam screwed it up. Genesis 3:15 enters the offspring of the woman, Jesus, who would come and who would reconcile a people unto God. In between Gen. 3:15, rulers, authorities, rulers of the darkness of this world, spiritual wickedness in high places tried to thwart the purposes and plans God had in mind but against all odds - Jesus Christ accomplished the work he was sent to do and thus established a way of salvation and became the foundation of our faith......
What exist in God's foreknowledge is that which HAS TO BE DONE in order to bring about the KINGDOM ---- NOT EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL in the world.......Me, that was a decision made between my parents ----- I am just a speck in the concept of God's plans and purposes.

It seems that 1 Corinthians 15 disagrees with you ---- In talking about bodies - it seems the 'natural' comes first then the 'spiritual'.
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable (corruptible); what is raised is imperishable (incorruptible). It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.

So you are saying that God was physical, and then became a Spirit?

Jesus did not exist in the OT - Jesus did not preexist his conception and birth. Matthew tells of Jesus' beginning.

Go ahead and try to disparage my character if it makes you feel better. We both know there is only one truth and we can only pray that we have not been blindly lead ----- sola scriptura or doctrines of men, i.e. creeds. Thanks.

I am sure it is well overdue, but I give you up to the consequences of your fictions; I wash my hands of you. May God have mercy on you if it is right for Him to do so.

 

[Runningman]

First of all do you even know what the Son of Man & Son of God signify? I suggest you should do your homework before making arbitrary comments. Now, as far as the phrases/words Trinity, Hypostatic Union, God-Man, Incarnate, Consubstantial, Aseity, Perichoresis. Are you familiar with their teaching and can you articulate intelligently? If, not how on earth can you make a conclusion? It's exactly like asking an atheist has he/she read the Bible, and they respond with a no. Well, that's not an intelligent conclusion to make.

I would say the burden of proof is on you since you are using vocabulary and phraseology never found in Scripture and it's going to require you to import extra-Biblical philosophy. You are stating your conclusion as your premise, that's the circular reasoning loop you have just begun. Please show where anyone said Jesus is a God Man or a union of man and God or any such statements that are in line with your philosophy.

Let me ask you this, simple or tricks or traps. Why were the Pharisees and Scribes trying to sentenced and kill the Son of Man for? These Jewish leaders knew exactly what Christ was saying and claiming to be.

Apparently not since Jesus called them all liars to their face and said they didn't believe anything he was saying. How do you suppose they were correct when Jesus said they were flat-out wrong? Do not join them in their errors. They misunderstood Jesus completely and did not understand who Jesus was claiming to be.

John 8
43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

 

[Doug Brents]

Those refer to being a human:

The Son of God is equal to the Son of Man:

John 5​

25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. 27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.​

He is indeed both. So then He is both God and Man.

The Lord is a human with a human mother:

Luke 1​

43And why am I so honored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?​

God is the Lord, so you are saying that God is a human?

Alpha and Omega/First and Last is mortal, but God is immortal:

Revelation 1​

17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.​

He did not start dead. He started as the Creator, and then lived a life as a man, died, and was raised.

The Bread of Life from heaven is the Son of Man that ascended from heaven, one of Jesus' human titles in your book:

John 6​

62Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?​

If He ascends to where He was before, then He must have come down from there to here. This verse pokes holes through your theology.

Light of the world has no reference to God. The disciples are also the Light of the world and they are definitively human only:

Matthew 5​

14You are the light of the world.​

The Apostles are the light of the world like the moon is the light at night; it reflects the true Light from the sun, just as the Apostles (and Christ follower today) reflect the Light of the Son (who is the true Light).

So you have not shown anything that justifies why Jesus is a human one moment and then God in your belief system.

Jesus is not "human one moment and then God" the next. He is both at all times.

May I ask you what is your explanation for Jesus not being given all of the divine names/titles of God?

I don't know of a single divine name or titles of God that is not applicable to Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

He is indeed both. So then He is both God and Man.

Others who are also Sons of God are also Son of Man.

God is the Lord, so you are saying that God is a human?

Jesus is a human Lord, as there are other human lords.

He did not start dead. He started as the Creator, and then lived a life as a man, died, and was raised.

Others also did not start dead, but will be alive forever and ever just like Jesus at his resurrection.

If He ascends to where He was before, then He must have come down from there to here. This verse pokes holes through your theology.

The comparison is about the manna that came down from heaven, Jesus came down from heaven in that sense, but did not literally pre-exist there any more than the manna did. Jesus did ascend there when God "took him to heaven" and others in the Bible were taken to heaven or will be taken to heaven as well.

The Apostles are the light of the world like the moon is the light at night; it reflects the true Light from the sun, just as the Apostles (and Christ follower today) reflect the Light of the Son (who is the true Light).

Jesus has the same title as the apostles.

Jesus is not "human one moment and then God" the next. He is both at all times.

He's a human only who has the same things that other humans have.

I don't know of a single divine name or titles of God that is not applicable to Jesus.

Most of them. We can go into that later, but don't get off track here. All of your reasonings apply to other humans who are not God. How do you explain this gaping hole in your theology?

 

[Doug Brents]

Others who are also Sons of God are also Son of Man.

No one.

Jesus is a human Lord, as there are other human lords.

No, He is the LORD.

Others also did not start dead, but will be alive forever and ever just like Jesus at his resurrection.

Jesus stared as God (John 1:1), took on flesh (John 1:14) and lived a life as a man. He then died and was resurrected. He could not be the Alpha (First) if He was not there at the beginning creating everything that was made.

The comparison is about the manna that came down from heaven, Jesus came down from heaven in that sense, but did not literally pre-exist there any more than the manna did. Jesus did ascend there when God "took him to heaven" and others in the Bible were taken to heaven or will be taken to heaven as well.

Jesus did preexist Creation, because He was responsible for creating everything that was created (John 1:3). The thing created cannot exist before the thing creating it. Manna is a created thing, and came down from Heaven because God made it so. Jesus came down from Heaven because that is where He was from.

He's a human only who has the same things that other humans have.

Very true, but He is also God most High (Heb 1:8, Col 2:9, Isa 9:6, Rom 9:5, John 10:30-33).

Most of them. We can go into that later, but don't get off track here.

Nope, not one.

All of your reasonings apply to other humans who are not God. How do you explain this gaping hole in your theology?

There is no hole. There is not a single other human to whom the titles of God belong, and there is not a single other human whom Scripture calls "God" (the Creator, author of life, God).

 

[Peterlag]

This sounds good, but there's two huge errors:

1. The Bible nowhere says that Jesus paid for our healing on the cross - rather He paid for our SINS.
Yes, I know, "By His stripes we are healed." The context is speaking of being healed from our sins, taken from Isaiah. Yes, I believe that He can and does heal when it's His will, but not because of the cross. God healed people long before the cross.

2. Not every Christian has gifts of healing. Nor can every Christian say that we have the same gifts that were given to the 12 apostles.

You may be right about the healing. That nowhere does it say Jesus paid for our healing. But there are problems with God will heal if it's His will. It's always His will. And I have big problems with what you call gifts of healing. Those are manifestations of the spirit given to every Christian.

 

[Runningman]

No one.

Others called Sons of God (Matthew 5:9, Romans 8:14)
Others called Son of Man (Ezekiel 2:1, Psalm 8:4)

Yet Scripture states God is not a Son of Man (Numbers 23:19)
But the Son of God is the Son of Man (John 5:25,26)

Conclusion, Jesus isn't God based on that title.

No, He is the LORD.

Mary is not the mother of the LORD if by LORD (all caps) you mean YHWH. Mary is the mother of a human lord of a God Lord?

Jesus stared as God (John 1:1), took on flesh (John 1:14) and lived a life as a man. He then died and was resurrected. He could not be the Alpha (First) if He was not there at the beginning creating everything that was made.

The issue is that your verses don't repeat what your commentary does.

Jesus did preexist Creation, because He was responsible for creating everything that was created (John 1:3). The thing created cannot exist before the thing creating it. Manna is a created thing, and came down from Heaven because God made it so. Jesus came down from Heaven because that is where He was from.

As requested exhaustively, I can't even remember all who I have asked at this point, but there are no examples of Jesus pre-existing. We've already combed through the Bible with our own two eyes, read through many commentaries, asked help from AI to find it. There is no clear examples of the pre-existence of Jesus so your interpretation doesn't match.

There must be congruency in a comparison, right? Jesus didn't tell us which parts apply to comparing himself to the manna from heaven so it looks like he couldn't have shouted any clearer that he is not God. Have you ever asked Jesus if he is God and, if so, what did he say?

Very true, but He is also God most High (Heb 1:8, Col 2:9, Isa 9:6, Rom 9:5, John 10:30-33).

Jesus is never called the Most High in the Bible.

Nope, not one.

In addition to Jesus never being called the Most High, Jesus is never called God Almighty, YHWH, the I AM, God of Abraham, the Father, and much more.

There is no hole. There is not a single other human to whom the titles of God belong, and there is not a single other human whom Scripture calls "God" (the Creator, author of life, God).

Yes there is a giant hole in your theology in which you exhibit crippling cognitive dissonance that you are tragically unaware of.

Everything you have said about Jesus still applies to others.

For example:

Hebrews 1:8 applies to Solomon in Psalm 45:6,7.

Colossians 2:9 applies to Jesus, but Eph. 3:19 says "you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." means Colossians 2:9 is not a Jesus exclusive.

Isaiah 9:6 has debatable translation issues, but your version contains a failed prophecy as no one of any authority ever called Jesus those titles.

With Romans 9:5, there was not punctuation in Greek, meaning that the translators chose where to place commas and periods. The KJV and RSV place punctuation in such a way in which Jesus isn't God there at all.

Jesus' reply to John 10:30-33 occurred in John 10:34-36 in which Jesus stated that their statement about him being God was an "accusation" meaning Jesus was characterizing their charge as an act of wrong doing, which shows Jesus had awareness that if he had claimed to be God he would have been wrong and it would have been a sin. John 10:34-36 is a denial of deity: "How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?" Because Jesus' point was that they are all sons of God, not himself only (see Psalm 82:6)

So you have no provided anything convincing at all. I think your understanding of Jesus is confused. Do you want to know the real Jesus?

 

[amazing grace]

So you are saying that God was physical, and then became a Spirit?

Nope, not what I said at all.
You said Jesus was spiritual first but scripture says that natural (corruptible, physical) is first then spiritual (incorruptible, spiritual body).

I am sure it is well overdue, but I give you up to the consequences of your fictions; I wash my hands of you. May God have mercy on you if it is right for Him to do so.

Thank you.
May God have mercy on you - especially if Jesus is not God and you are worshipping him AS the ALMIGHTY GOD.

 

[360watt]

I don't know where you're from but in most cultures the father is always greater than the son.

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. [John 10:29]

You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. [John 14:28]

Again for the upteenth time.. when Jesus said 'The Father is greater than I'.. .the context is of Jesus ascending to be one with the Father not long afterwards.

So the difference is positional. Jesus also was in the flesh, while the Father was not.. so it's greater in the sense of the limitations in the flesh Jesus had. That limitation is now gone.. Jesus is resurrected and empowering individual believers and churches through the Holy Spirit, which He sent with the Father.

The President of the USA is greater than I.

A superior being? No. In a greater positional office.