The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[amazing grace]

There are classes of beings such as human beings, spiritual beings, and God. According to you, what class or classes of being is Jesus? Unless you can answer this question then you are just equivocating.

What are these senseless questions? Let's see how many times did I say MAN in what I posted? WHAT CLASS WOULD THAT BE? WOULD THAT NOT BE A HUMAN BEING?

equivocating? To use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself----honestly, how and in what manner did I 'equivocate'? I'm pretty sure I spoke PLAINLY AND CLEARLY with COMMITMENT.

 

[amazing grace]

Thats why God became man.

Nowhere does God say He cannot become man.

The whole purpose for the atonement and salvation.

But GOD PLAINLY STATES HE IS NOT A MAN ...... and there are no textual variants in the verses where He states that He is not a human being, a man. God cannot completely contradict who HE IS...... If he is immortal -- he cannot also be mortal. If he is all powerful he cannot also be weak. If He is all knowing then he cannot also have no knowledge.

God gave HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON for the whole purpose of atonement and salvation.
You are like the Jews who made false accusations against Jesus.
Jesus NEVER admitted to being God ---- He himself said he was 'a man who heard from God' ---- Jesus said of himself that he was the Son of God, i.e. that God was his Father ---- Jesus said that he was the Christ, God's anointed ---- Jesus said that he was the King of the Jews. ----

If Jesus was actually God just dressed up pretending to be a man -- you have an impersonal empty piece of flesh nailed to the cross ---- Thanks but no thanks - I prefer my personal savior who actually bled for the forgiveness of my sins, who gave his life for me so that I could live.

 

[Peterlag]

And you are not God who died for sin. Jesus is God and its Gods own blood.

Acts 20:28
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

We are not conversing about blood. We are conversing about the word "Father."

 

[Peterlag]

If Jesus is not a just a normal man nor God then what is he????

Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

No Trin ever said that because No Trin would have thought such

Yes it is true. Those are trinitarian words. Just "a man" and "mere man" because trinitarians do not believe in the Christ so they think if he's not God then he must be just a regular man.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[Peterlag]

I have noticed the Trinitarians ignore posts about the spirit...

Their churches never gave them any Trinitarian verses on the spirit like they did with these...
1.) Isaiah 9:6
2.) Matthew 28:18
3.) John 1:1
4.) John 1:3
5.) John 1:14
6.) John 6:38
7.) John 8:58
8.) John 10:30
9.) John 10:33
10.) John 14:19
11.) John 20:28
12.) Philippians 2:6
13.) Colossians 1:16
14.) 1 Timothy 3:16
15.) Hebrews 1:8
16.) 1 John 5:7
17.) Revelation 1:8

There are many descriptions, titles, and names for God in the Bible and I would like to add God’s proper name is “Yahweh” which occurs more than 6,000 times in the Hebrew Old Testament and is generally translated as “LORD.” But God is also referred to as Elohim, Adonai, El Shaddai, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, Father, Shield, and by many more designations. Furthermore, God is holy (Leviticus 11:44), which is why He was called “the Holy One” (the Hebrew text uses the singular adjective “holy” to designate “the Holy One." He is also spirit (John 4:24). It makes perfect sense since God is holy and God is spirit that “Holy” and “Spirit” are sometimes combined and used as one of the many designations for God. Thus, the Hebrew or Greek words for the "HOLY SPIRIT" should be brought into English as the "Holy Spirit” when the subject of a verse is God.

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit."

 

[synergy]

Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

There are classes of beings such as human beings, spiritual beings, and God. According to you, what class or classes of being is Jesus? Unless you can answer this question then you are just equivocating.

 

[synergy]

What are these senseless questions? Let's see how many times did I say MAN in what I posted? WHAT CLASS WOULD THAT BE? WOULD THAT NOT BE A HUMAN BEING?

equivocating? To use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself----honestly, how and in what manner did I 'equivocate'? I'm pretty sure I spoke PLAINLY AND CLEARLY with COMMITMENT.

You were shocked to think that Jesus is " a mere man??". Therefore, what class of being is he if he is not "a mere man", beyond being a human being. Let's see if you can stop your equivocating and answer my question.

 

[Peterlag]

There are classes of beings such as human beings, spiritual beings, and God. According to you, what class or classes of being is Jesus? Unless you can answer this question then you are just equivocating.

So, if we say Jesus, was a human being. Does that mean he was (unlike us) the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

 

[synergy]

So, if we say Jesus, was a human being. Does that mean he was (unlike us) the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

If we say that Jesus is just a human being then that means that he was not the Word who was God and who tabernacles now as Jesus, totally contradicting John's Prologue.

So, according to you what class or classes of being is Jesus?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes it is true. Those are trinitarian words. Just "a man" and "mere man" because trinitarians do not believe in the Christ so they think if he's not God then he must be just a regular man.

Charlie,

I am a Trin and I do not believe you.
Calling Jesus “just a man” or “mere man” is not a Trinitarian view—it’s an anti-Trinitarian claim. Trinitarians fully affirm Christ as both God and man. Scripture clearly shows He was fully human (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14–18) yet fully divine (John 1:1–3, Colossians 2:9). Reducing Him to “just a man” misrepresents the Bible.

 

[mikesw]

Jesus Christ is the human Son of God, God's Christ, the one God sent into the world via a miraculous conception through Mary. A mere man?? No other human being was brought into the world through a virgin birth.
A young boy who grew in stature and in wisdom speaking with the leadership within the temple learning and teaching at the same time! A man whom God anointed with His Spirit. A man in whom the Spirit of God dwelled without measure. A man who ALWAYS did the will of God His Father. A man who was despised and rejected by his own people. A man who cried out in anguish for some other way to redeem mankind -- “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” A man who was oppressed and stricken yet he opened not his mouth like a Lamb let to the slaughter pouring out his soul to death, the humiliation of death on the cross ---- None of the above to me sounds like a MERE MAN but an AMAZING human being, a GREAT man of God.....who gave his life so that others could rest assured in their salvation and in their hope of eternal life.

You just reduce Jesus to a mere man but having a unique birth. Like you say is Jesus is mere flesh in his life -- and only having the name Son of God. Oh but you then show he has the spirit of God in him -- but deny that is him.

God cannot die. An impersonal piece of flesh did not hang on that cross for your sins......A mortal human being, your brother died for YOU! YOU GET IT!! God did not owe himself the price for the wages of sin --- humanity OWED God the wages of sin -----therefore a human being, not God covered with a piece of flesh, had to die.

Because you do not know the metaphysics behind the situation does not mean you should deny that the pre-existent One was God who then became incarnate. You do not have to know the metaphysics but just accept the testimony.

Keep using those scripture known for their textual variant. They are ambiguous and mean nothing show me a verse where God shed his blood that reads ---- God shed his blood for the remission of sins. Try reading your footnotes in your Bible every once in a while----I have one which reads: Or with the blood of his Own . . . meaning 'with the blood of his OWN SON.'

And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [Matthew 26:27,28]

Just forget the textual and translation variants simply because they do not conform to the misconception of Jesus that you have -- that is backwards interpretation methods. Doing that gives you backwards results.

You are promoting bad theology based on bad interpretations methods. Meanwhile you learn nothing but still promote your views or the views you were fed but later made your view.

 

[amazing grace]

You were shocked to think that Jesus is " a mere man??". Therefore, what class of being is he if he is not "a mere man", beyond being a human being. Let's see if you can stop your equivocating and answer my question.

No, I am not shocked that YOU THINK OF JESUS AS A "MERE MAN". I gave a description of who my Messiah is.

 

[amazing grace]

View attachment 2762

?

 

[amazing grace]

You just reduce Jesus to a mere man but having a unique birth. Like you say is Jesus is mere flesh in his life -- and only having the name Son of God. Oh but you then show he has the spirit of God in him -- but deny that is him.

I plainly explained who I believed my Jesus to be......every sentence relative to who he was - was pulled from scripture. If you are born again - you also have the spirit of God dwelling in you via the gift of holy spirit - doesn't make you God. Paul even prays for us to be filled with all the fullness of God - still wouldn't mean we are God.

Because you do not know the metaphysics behind the situation does not mean you should deny that the pre-existent One was God who then became incarnate. You do not have to know the metaphysics but just accept the testimony.

I can't accept what is not true.

haha. Just forget the textual and translation variants simply because they do not conform to the misconception of Jesus that you have -- that is backwards interpretation methods.

Oh, you don't have that footnote in your Bible? They are there for a reason.

 

[Peterlag]

Charlie,

I am a Trin and I do not believe you.
Calling Jesus “just a man” or “mere man” is not a Trinitarian view—it’s an anti-Trinitarian claim. Trinitarians fully affirm Christ as both God and man. Scripture clearly shows He was fully human (John 1:14, Hebrews 2:14–18) yet fully divine (John 1:1–3, Colossians 2:9). Reducing Him to “just a man” misrepresents the Bible.

You're not understanding. The words “just a man” or “mere man” is a Trinitarian view of what the Trinitarians believe we think Jesus is.

 

[Peterlag]

If we say that Jesus is just a human being then that means that he was not the Word who was God and who tabernacles now as Jesus, totally contradicting John's Prologue.

So, according to you what class or classes of being is Jesus?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You just reduce Jesus to a mere man but having a unique birth. Like you say is Jesus is mere flesh in his life -- and only having the name Son of God. Oh but you then show he has the spirit of God in him -- but deny that is him.

Because you do not know the metaphysics behind the situation does not mean you should deny that the pre-existent One was God who then became incarnate. You do not have to know the metaphysics but just accept the testimony.

You know @mikesw, I may be off base, but I think your phrase “just accept the testimony” actually gets to the heart of what biblical faith is.

Faith is not a demand to first master metaphysics or philosophical mechanics before we are allowed to trust God.
Faith is trusting the testimony God has given even when we cannot fully explain how it works.
1 John 5:11 says...And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

The apostles did not preach a metaphysical system.They preached a Person ... the One God sent.
1 John 1:3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

You insist I must accept a metaphysical explanation — “the pre-existent One was God who became incarnate.”
But Scripture never commands me to accept a metaphysical model.
It commands me to believe the testimony God Himself gives about His Son.

For me is the acceptance is The Word became flesh. John 1:14, Gid sent us His Sone, born of a woman. Gal. 4:4, and that was The man Christ Jesus . 1 Tim 2:5

“The Word became flesh.” (John 1:14)
“God sent His Son, born of a woman.” (Gal 4:4)
“The man Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim 2:5)

As for myself, this is the testimony I have faith in and believe fully with out a doubt and without the need to involve metaphysics, for reality is true and to question such IMO is ... well, I'll leave that to the readers imagination.

Just forget the textual and translation variants simply because they do not conform to the misconception of Jesus that you have -- that is backwards interpretation methods. Doing that gives you backwards results.

You are promoting bad theology based on bad interpretations methods. Meanwhile you learn nothing but still promote your views or the views you were fed but later made your view.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You're not understanding. The words “just a man” or “mere man” is a Trinitarian view of what the Trinitarians believe we think Jesus is.

Well, isn't it?