The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[amazing grace]

If Scripture says something, even once, then it is 100% certain, take it to the bank, positively TRUTH!

That is all true, but what we also see is that it was part of God (the Logos of God (John 1:1)), that created all that is (John 1:3), left Heaven (John 6:38), emptied Himself (Phil 2:7), became subservient to the Father (Phil 2:6-8), and was then raised back to where He was before.

God is not 'parts' ...... ask any Trinitarian here. God is indivisible.

God's logos is God's word.....all things that were created by His word and the breath of His mouth.
Jesus came down from heaven, aka came from God, aka God the Father sent me ----
Jesus came down from heaven, etc. via a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary.

Philippians 2:6-9 Jesus emptied himself of his 'God-given' prerogatives------Jesus was the suffering servant of Isaiah 52,53
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; (53:3); he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (53:4a); and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all (53:6b). He poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors (53:12b). Therefore, he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted. (Isaiah 52:13) God's chosen servant, Jesus Christ.

No need for a Trinity, no need for Jesus to be God at all ---- Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the man attested by God, empowered by God, strengthened by God, gave His life, shed his blood, ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father ---- Our HOPE.

 

[mikesw]

God is not 'parts' ...... ask any Trinitarian here. God is indivisible.

God's logos is God's word.....all things that were created by His word and the breath of His mouth.
Jesus came down from heaven, aka came from God, aka God the Father sent me ----
Jesus came down from heaven, etc. via a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary.

Philippians 2:6-9 Jesus emptied himself of his 'God-given' prerogatives------Jesus was the suffering servant of Isaiah 52,53
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; (53:3); he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (53:4a); and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all (53:6b). He poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors (53:12b). Therefore, he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted. (Isaiah 52:13) God's chosen servant, Jesus Christ.

No need for a Trinity, no need for Jesus to be God at all ---- Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the man attested by God, empowered by God, strengthened by God, gave His life, shed his blood, ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father ---- Our HOPE.

Indeed there is no "need" for a Trinity. This is simply who God is.
However, there is a "need" for Jesus to have pre-existed as God lest we find John a liar in John 1, which would make scriptures untrustworthy. If not the Son of God, his is just a martyr's death just as any prophet was in the past.

It is absurd for unitarians to create new, novel, gnostic, private doctrine as if it were insight and then try to argue that unitarian view by skipping the verses that explicitly reject the unitarian position. There is no need for that.

 

[Peterlag]

The question of what God is has been approached in countless ways across different religions, philosophies, and personal beliefs. Generally speaking, God is often described in terms of attributes, experiences, and relationships rather than in definitive, limited terms. Many traditions present God as:

Transcendent: Beyond human comprehension and existing outside of time and space.
Immanent: Present and active within the world and within all living beings.
Omniscient: All-knowing, with complete knowledge of the past, present, and future.
Omnipotent: All-powerful, capable of anything.
Omnibenevolent: All-good, embodying the highest moral perfection.

Different cultures and spiritual systems also frame God through various titles, metaphors, or roles. For example

The Creator in many Abrahamic religions.
The Divine Presence or The Source in mystical traditions.
The Self or Atman in certain Eastern philosophies, like Hinduism.
The Absolute or The Ground of Being in existential and process philosophy.

Ultimately, what God is might depend on your own perspective or worldview, and the search for understanding God is often viewed as a personal, deeply transformative journey.

None of these above are me. ARE THEY YOU?

That God is the eternal everlasting spirit who designed and created us to love and be loved through a future eternity of companionship with Him, and the Son, who is also God, and the Holy Spirit the third in the Godhead.

I say this because of my personal relationship with Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirits relationship within me.

IOW
God is the eternal, self-existent Spirit, the source of all life and being. He did not create out of need, but out of love. Within God Himself is relationship—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—perfect love shared eternally. Out of that overflowing love, He designed and created us to know Him, to love, and to be loved, and to share in that life forever.

The Father is the origin and will of love.
The Son, who is fully God, reveals that love in a way we can see and touch—entering creation, sharing our nature, and restoring broken relationship.
The Holy Spirit, also fully God, makes that relationship real and living within us—guiding, comforting, and transforming us.

So God is not just power, or law, or mystery alone.
God is personal, relational, and eternal love, inviting human beings into an unending companionship with Himself.

It's a good thing I'm here. God is Spirit. He is also Holy which is why He's often referred to in the Bible as The Holy Spirit.

cc: @Doug Brents

 

[Peterlag]

 

[mikesw]

It's a good thing I'm here. God is Spirit. He is also Holy which is why He's often referred to in the Bible as The Holy Spirit.

and per unitarian viewpoints, the Holy Spirit at the baptism is throwing his voice back into the heavens -- as a ventriloquist. For them it is not as if God the Father spoke from heaven while another One in the Trinity came upon Jesus who also is identified in John 1 as pre-existing as God. In the unitarian concept God is just creating weird anomalies to confuse people.

 

[mikesw]

View attachment 2740

Wow. this meme does not reflect any logical analysis of scripture. Hopefully their nonsensical interpretation will be dropped quickly. In reality, the scriptures show many times of Jesus' preexistence as God and his role in creation. But those passages must be dropped by serious unitarian advocates.

 

[Peterlag]

Let's talk about Philippians 2...

Philippians 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[mikesw]

View attachment 2741

duh. are you going to let your misinterpretation of the situation to confuse yourself and others? Jesus as being the pre-existing one becoming incarnate has a unique distinction within the Godhead. He has distinction because he has been known through incarnation as being seen among the Jews. He bridges from the Father to all of humanity. Otherwise, a person has to reject John 1:1-18 to come to other theories.

 

[Peterlag]

There’s no such thing as a “Godhead." The word in the Greek just means divinity. Get your head out of the fourth century Catholic bishop's rear end. And stick to the scripture alone. Look up the Greek. It's 2026 and you have many tools to do that.

 

[FreeInChrist]

It's a good thing I'm here. God is Spirit. He is also Holy which is why He's often referred to in the Bible as The Holy Spirit.

cc: @Doug Brents

By your reasoning, Jesus is also spirit. Jesus is also Holy. Jesus is God.

God is spirit by nature (John 4:24).
The Holy Spirit is not God merely because He is “holy” and “spirit,” but because He is a distinct divine person who proceeds from the Father (John 15:26).

Likewise, Jesus is not God by adjective or title, but because the Word was God and became flesh (John 1:1,14).

So since you basically argue that “Holy Spirit” is simply another name for God because God is spirit and holy, your logic collapses... because the same logic would deny the Son’s distinct personhood or reduce Him to a title as well.

The Trinity is not three gods, not one person in three masks, and not a substance that divides.
It is one God eternally existing as three distinct persons, exactly as Scripture reveals.

 

[Doug Brents]

God is not 'parts' ...... ask any Trinitarian here. God is indivisible.

God's logos is God's word.....all things that were created by His word and the breath of His mouth.
Jesus came down from heaven, aka came from God, aka God the Father sent me ----
Jesus came down from heaven, etc. via a miraculous conception in the womb of Mary.

Philippians 2:6-9 Jesus emptied himself of his 'God-given' prerogatives------

Jesus did not have any "God-given" prerogatives. Jesus was God (John 1:1). He emptied Himself of His own prerogatives.

Jesus was the suffering servant of Isaiah 52,53
He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; (53:3); he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows (53:4a); and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all (53:6b). He poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors (53:12b). Therefore, he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted. (Isaiah 52:13) God's chosen servant, Jesus Christ.

No need for a Trinity, no need for Jesus to be God at all ----

There is absolutely a need for Jesus to be God. God is infinite and omnipotent. If Jesus were finite then His sacrifice would not be sufficient to cover all of humanity's sin in one sacrifice. He would have to die once for each person saved (a life for a life). But because He is infinite, His one sacrifice is sufficient to cover every person who has or will ever live.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the man attested by God, empowered by God, strengthened by God, gave His life, shed his blood, ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father ---- Our HOPE.

Correct

 

[FreeInChrist]

and per unitarian viewpoints, the Holy Spirit at the baptism is throwing his voice back into the heavens -- as a ventriloquist. For them it is not as if God the Father spoke from heaven while another One in the Trinity came upon Jesus who also is identified in John 1 as pre-existing as God. In the unitarian concept God is just creating weird anomalies to confuse people.

This, IMO, was the first indication of the Trinity to the people present, and possibly the most important revelation anyone could perceive or know about.

At Jesus’ baptism, the witnesses did not see a single person changing roles or manifesting in different modes. They saw simultaneous distinction and unity.....

The Son standing in the water, visibly present as Jesus of Nazareth
The Spirit descending upon Him in bodily form, like a dove
The Father speaking audibly from heaven, identifying Jesus as His Son

None of these were symbolic after-the-fact explanations. They occurred at the same moment, in real time, in the presence of eyewitnesses.

If God were a single person merely appearing in different forms, this event would be deceptive rather than revelatory. But Scripture presents it as revelation. The Father does not say, “This is Me,” but “This is My Son.” The Spirit does not become the Son, but rests upon Him.

What was revealed was not three gods, but one God known in three distinct persons, acting together in perfect unity. That reality was not invented later by theology ,it was observed first, and only later articulated more precisely as the Church wrestled with what it had already seen.

So long before creeds or councils, the Trinity was not explained it WAS revealed.

 

[amazing grace]

Indeed there is no "need" for a Trinity. This is simply who God is.
However, there is a "need" for Jesus to have pre-existed as God lest we find John a liar in John 1, which would make scriptures untrustworthy. If not the Son of God, his is just a martyr's death just as any prophet was in the past.

It is absurd for unitarians to create new, novel, gnostic, private doctrine as if it were insight and then try to argue that unitarian view by skipping the verses that explicitly reject the unitarian position. There is no need for that.

Scripture does not teach God as a Triune being, person, etc. No one has yet produced a scripture that clearly and succinctly presents their case. Go ahead famous words of yours --- hyperliteralist!!! One would at least expect a FEW scriptures that clearly and succinctly presented their doctrine.

If preexistence was not the author's intention in John 1 --- then no one is a liar.
I believe the author of John says that the 'Word' was in the beginning with God just as wisdom was in the beginning with God.
Jesus is the Son of God ---- He is not as old as God his Father.
No one skips verses --- there was no private doctrine created ---- Isaiah did not lie just as John did not lie.

 

[amazing grace]

Jesus did not have any "God-given" prerogatives. Jesus was God (John 1:1). He emptied Himself of His own prerogatives.

There is absolutely a need for Jesus to be God. God is infinite and omnipotent. If Jesus were finite then His sacrifice would not be sufficient to cover all of humanity's sin in one sacrifice. He would have to die once for each person saved (a life for a life). But because He is infinite, His one sacrifice is sufficient to cover every person who has or will ever live.

Correct

God did not empower Jesus? “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
God did not give Jesus authority? ....... the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins ......
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

There is not need for Jesus to be God. Yes, God is infinite, all knowing and omnipotent, all powerful ----- His human son was not. Human beings sinned against God ---- humanity owed God for their sins therefore a human had to pay the price.
The sacrifice for humanity had to be someone who could die - a finite mortal human being died for the sins of the world.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. [1 John 2:2]

So, Jesus, the human Son of God, was absolutely sufficient to cover all of humanity's sin in one sacrifice ----- He would not have to die ONCE FOR EACH PERSON......DID ADAM HAVE TO SIN ONCE FOR EACH PERSON?

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.......Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. ---------For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. [Romans 5:8-10, 12,18,19]

 

[amazing grace]

This, IMO, was the first indication of the Trinity to the people present, and possibly the most important revelation anyone could perceive or know about.

At Jesus’ baptism, the witnesses did not see a single person changing roles or manifesting in different modes. They saw simultaneous distinction and unity.....

The Son standing in the water, visibly present as Jesus of Nazareth
The Spirit descending upon Him in bodily form, like a dove
The Father speaking audibly from heaven, identifying Jesus as His Son

None of these were symbolic after-the-fact explanations. They occurred at the same moment, in real time, in the presence of eyewitnesses.

They saw a man, a human being which they truly believed to be a human being coming up out of the water and the Holy Spirit descending upon him in bodily form (for the sake of John's recognition) like a dove and God Himself announcing that Jesus is the Son of God, now anointed to begin his earthly ministry ---- Yes, this was the public ceremony of the anointing of God's Son, the Messiah.

If God were a single person merely appearing in different forms, this event would be deceptive rather than revelatory. But Scripture presents it as revelation. The Father does not say, “This is Me,” but “This is My Son.” The Spirit does not become the Son, but rests upon Him.

If Jesus is God this event is totally deceptive because this isn't actually God's son in whom he is well pleased but God himself in the flesh!!!! For the record ---- God gave his only Son, God sent his Son, the Son came from God, etc.
Of course the Father, the only true God doesn't say 'this is me' for Jesus is not God and who would know that better than his own Father.
Correct, Jesus is baptized with the holy spirit and the spirit rest upon him ---- For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. [John 3:34]

What was revealed was not three gods, but one God known in three distinct persons, acting together in perfect unity. That reality was not invented later by theology ,it was observed first, and only later articulated more precisely as the Church wrestled with what it had already seen.

So long before creeds or councils, the Trinity was not explained it WAS revealed.

The next day he (John) saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.".... And John bore witness: "I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but HE WHO SENT ME to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain this is he who baptizes with the holy spirit'..... and I have seen and have borne witness that this is the SON OF GOD."
One God who anointed His Son with Holy Spirit OR One Father, the only true God anointing and anouncing HIS SON, Jesus Christ with His very own Spirit..........Not three distinct persons.