The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning
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Alter2Ego
Active Member
TomL:
You need to contact your source, Luke Wayne, and explain to him that the expression God--even when capitalized--is nothing more than a title that applies to powerful beings such as angels and even humans in positions of power. Notice the words bolded in red within the quotation below from Encyclopedia Britannica.
"Elohim, (Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament. A plural of majesty, the term Elohim—though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofeṭim), and the Messiah—is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). "
are there not enough passages in scripture telling us Jesus is God so as to be convincing to JWs? Or do they have to deny all the passages just to reject the testimony of his deity?
Alter2Ego, I believe you know your lesson well, by contrasting the "God" to "god" I know you that you know they differ greatly..
Um, can this be stated of them
Jesus has attributes of the True God (Yahweh). These things cannot be said of any man but only God.
Power
Jesus has power over disease- Luke 7:14,
over death—Matt. 8:26,
over nature—Matt. 8:16,
over Satan and his angels—Luke 4:35-41; Eph 1:20-23,
over all things Heb 1:3
Knowledge
Jesus knows all people, their thoughts, and their intentions.
The woman at the well- John 4:16.
In John 2:24, Luke 5:22 Jesus knew their thoughts.
Peter declared Jesus knew all things John 16:30
Multipresence
Jesus is in multiple places at the same time.
Matt 18:20—Where 2 or 3 are gathered in My name, I will be in their midst.
Matt 28:20 And lo, I am with you always until the end of the age.
ETERNAL
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word.
1 John 1:1—from the beginning.
Micah 5:2—whose going forth is from everlasting,
Col 1:17—He is before all things,
John 17:5- glory that I had before the world was.
Heb 13:8 Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever—He changes not! Which means Jesus is also IMMUTABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jesus is the Creator:
John 1:3—Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.
Rom 11:36—“For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen”
Col. 1:15-17—He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Heb. 1:10- "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.
Is the image and expression of God the Father
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Heb 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
2 Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
John 12:45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.
These are things you must consider, as none but Jesus fulfill.
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Peterlag
Active Member
Jesus did not create the dinosaurs.
Colossians 1 is not talking about the first creation, the old creation, but about the new creation - of which Jesus is "first fruits" and "first begotten from the dead".
Paul here is speaking of the true purpose of God which centers on the obedience of his son, and the day on which God raised his son from the grave to become the first born of a new creation.
Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Christ pre-existed the world
John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Before existing in flesh
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”
FreeInChrist
Active Member
They deny if there is 1 or 100.
It is telling of a misinterpretation about the preexisting one who became Jesus in these cases where unitarians present Jesus in the image of a man walking among aminals such as dinosaurs. No one that I know thinks the incarnate Jesus existed in flesh form before birth through Mary. However, I may have to rethink that after seeing the photo that was taken.
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Peterlag
Active Member
Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.
So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.
It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
Maybe you have heard that the God of Israel gets differentiated from false gods and the human creations in making the universe. That differentiation does not restrict the essence of God to image created by unitarians. That reductionism is a sign of hyperliteralism that is unable to comprehend the essence of God as shared in scripture. We can hope that the new year will bring a correction away from the unitarian misconception.
dwight92070
Active Member
Jesus said, "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other, You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24
So if Jesus is not God, then He is one master and God would be another separate master. So you can't serve (worship) one master, Jesus, and a second master, God at the same time. Either Jesus is your master or God is your master. Which is it?
So if Jesus is not God, then He is one master and God would be another separate master. So you can't serve (worship) one master, Jesus, and a second master, God at the same time. Either Jesus is your master or God is your master. Which is it?
Seeing as Jesus is God, Isa 44:24 is no problem
The one God is Father, Son, Holy Ghost
Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
You ignore the following points
He is the image of the invisible God
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth
All things in heaven were created by him
He is before all things
And thus he is before the things in heaven
It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is rought up.
Christ pre-existed the world
John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Before the world
The world is not a reference to the redeemed here
Before existing in flesh
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”
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Peterlag
Active Member
Because I don't see things in the Bible that are not there is why you say I ignore them. You see things in your mind that are not in the Bible.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Well, do you regard the KJV 1611 , Tyndale New Testament 1525, ASV 1901, and Geneva Bibles 1560/1599 as viable? If not, why not?
Here are a few others.....
Wycliffe Bible Date: c. 1382–1395
Language: Middle English (from the Latin Vulgate)Spelling: Godhede
Key verses:
Colossians 2:9 – “For in him dwelleth al the godhede bodili.”
Romans 1:20
Acts 17:29
This is the earliest English Bible, and it already uses Godhede to describe Christ.
Coverdale Bible Date: 1535
Spelling: GodheadVerses: Same three passages
Matthew Bible Date: 1537
Spelling: GodheadGreat Bible Date: 1539
Spelling: GodheadAuthorized for use in the Church of England
Bishops’ Bible Date: 1568
Spelling: GodheadWhy does this matter????
“Godhead” is not a modern invention
It appears in English Bibles over 600 years ago
It was used before later doctrinal controversies
It translates Greek θεότης (theotēs) and θειότης (theiotēs) — terms referring to the nature/essence of God
Peterlag
Active Member
Colossians 2:9 is good proof that Jesus Christ was not God. It would make no sense to say that “what God is” dwells in God. It is only because Christ is not God that it makes sense to say that what God is dwells in Christ. Also, the verse uses the word “God” not “the Father.” If Trinitarians were correct that the Father and Christ were two separate “Persons” but both the Father and Christ were “God” then this verse should state that in Christ dwells all the fullness of “the Father.” The verse says “God” is dwelling bodily in Christ, that is, being embodied in him. What God was, all his character and glory, dwelt in Christ in a bodily form. Some Trinitarians recognize that logically what God is could not dwell in God, and so they assert that this verse is referring to the “man” part of Christ (the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is both fully God and fully human. The fact that this is logically impossible by definition is ignored and taken as one of the mysteries of the Faith).
amazing grace
Active Member
I believe the two masters Jesus is talking about is God and wealth --- you have to chose who is your master, who are you a slave to? God or wealth.......Do you spend you time in the pursuit of God or in the pursuit of wealth?
The meaning has nothing to do with what you said.
I posted the verses; you just ignored dealing with them.
Seeing as Jesus is God, Isa 44:24 is no problem
The one God is Father, Son, Holy Ghost
Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
You ignore the following points
He is the image of the invisible God
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth
All things in heaven were created by him
He is before all things
And thus he is before the things in heaven
It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is rought up.
Christ pre-existed the world
John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Before the world
The world is not a reference to the redeemed here
Before existing in flesh
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”
Peterlag
Active Member
What you call ignore is not me not responding. It's me not responding in agreement with you. Here's Colossians 1:16 for the 50th time...
Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.
So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.
It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
Again you ignore multiple verses and facts
I posted the verses; you just ignored dealing with them.
Seeing as Jesus is God, Isa 44:24 is no problem
The one God is Father, Son, Holy Ghost
Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
You ignore the following points
He is the image of the invisible God
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth
All things in heaven were created by him
He is before all things
And thus he is before the things in heaven
It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.
Christ pre-existed the world
John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Before the world
The world is not a reference to the redeemed here
Before existing in flesh
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”
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