The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Peterlag]

Finding a verb or a plural word or another hint here or a clue there is not a teaching on the doctrine of the trinity. I believe if there was a trinity it would have been taught by someone. It would clearly be stated and it is not. Not even one verse that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I have told you many times there is no trinity or trinity doctrine mentioned in the Bible and you continue to twist and pull Scripture out of context and tell me that there is. When I show with every verse you quote that you are either using a verse from a bad translation or taking the verse out of context or you do not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in is when you say I'm not answering you. In your mind there is no correct answer to Jesus is God and John 1:3 proves it because John 1:3 does not say Jesus is God. You say I'm ignoring that it says the logos is a him. And I have posted more times than I can count that the logos is not a him. It's an it.

Its ok....

Ill not mention it again

 

[TomL]

There's 11 verses you just posted. Which one do you want me to comment on?

The points I raised.


Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

You ignore the following points

He is the image of the invisible God

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

 

[TomL]

The spirit was given to Jesus without measure meaning he had a good portion of it. Of course that would mean it could have been said of him that all the fullness of God dwelled in him.

So you affirm the Holy Spirit as deity?

But the words good portion are not in the text

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,


PS this was true, however, even before the incarnation.

Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

 

[Peterlag]

So you affirm the Holy Spirit as deity?

But the words good portion are not in the text

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,


PS this was true, however, even before the incarnation.

Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

 

[Peterlag]

The points I raised.


Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

You ignore the following points

He is the image of the invisible God

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

 

[mikesw]

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

that really is a strong effort to avoid calling Jesus Lord.

 

[TomL]

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...

1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.

And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.

You failed to address a single point once again

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.


He is the image of the invisible God

By him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

You constantly ignore the plain fact of Christ's pre-creation existence.

 

[TomL]

John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

You did not answer the question

So you affirm the Holy Spirit as deity?

And without measure is more than a good portion.

BTW this is before the incarnation

Philippians 2:6–7 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Will you affirm this pre-existence?

 

[Peterlag]

You did not answer the question

So you affirm the Holy Spirit as deity?

And without measure is more than a good portion.

BTW this is before the incarnation

Philippians 2:6–7 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Will you affirm this pre-existence?

I don't know what's in your mind when you use the word "deity" a word I never see in the Bible referring to the Christ.

 

[Peterlag]

You failed to address a single point once again

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.


He is the image of the invisible God

By him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

You constantly ignore the plain fact of Christ's pre-creation existence.

I responded with all my points concerning Colossians 1:16 that you mentioned. You say I did not respond because you did not like my response. Not that I did not respond.

 

[TomL]

I responded with all my points concerning Colossians 1:16 that you mentioned. You say I did not respond because you did not like my response. Not that I did not respond.

Sorry, but you do not address

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.


He is the image of the invisible God

By him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

You constantly ignore the plain fact of Christ's pre-creation existence.


To start with you cannot address Heb 1:10-12, Phil 2:6-7; John 17:5 by reciting your interpretation of Col 1:16

 

[Peterlag]

Sorry, but you do not address

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.


He is the image of the invisible God

By him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

You constantly ignore the plain fact of Christ's pre-creation existence.


To start with you cannot address Heb 1:10-12, Phil 2:6-7; John 17:5 by reciting your interpretation of Col 1:16

Yep, I did address. Here it is again...

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

 

[TomL]

I don't know what's in your mind when you use the word "deity" a word I never see in the Bible referring to the Christ.

Um

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

 

[TomL]

Yep, I did address. Here it is again...

Colossians 1:16 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. Many point to Colossians 1:16 and claim it proves that Jesus is the creator of the universe. Isaiah 44:24 says God created "all alone" and "by myself." So who's telling the truth? Acts 17:24-31 says God made the world and everything in it. He will judge the world by a MAN whom He has appointed and raised from the dead.

So what does Colossians 1:16 mean? The phrase "all things were created in" and "through" and "for" Jesus is not about physical creation. It's about God's plan of redemption, which centered on the Messiah. Jesus is the foundation of God's plan, and not the architect of the cosmos. Colossians 1 isn't about Genesis 1. It's about the New Creation.

It tells you right in the verse what the all things are. They are thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers. Not planets, oceans and stars. The verse is telling us Jesus will need these things to govern in his new up-coming kingdom.

TomL said:
Sorry, but you do not address

Colossians 1:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.


He is the image of the invisible God - Point not addressed

By him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth -

All things in heaven were created by him - you deny what Col 1:16 states

Your appeal to Isa 44:24 does not disprove Christ did the actual work

He is before all things Point not addressed

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world. Point not addressed

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world. .

Before the world- Point not addressed

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh - Point not addressed

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

You constantly ignore the plain fact of Christ's pre-creation existence. Point not addressed


To start with you cannot address Heb 1:10-12, Phil 2:6-7; John 17:5 by reciting your interpretation of Col 1:16

 

[Peterlag]

Um

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

For in him (Jesus) all the fullness of the Godhead (God) dwells in him

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[Peterlag]

So you affirm the Holy Spirit as deity?

But the words good portion are not in the text

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,


PS this was true, however, even before the incarnation.

Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

It means that God dwelt in Jesus, as a second, separate Person, not that Jesus himself was God (the fullness of deity). Jesus made this clear enough "I am not alone... the one who sent me is with me... the Father [i.e. "the only true God" John.17:3] Dwelling in me, He doeth the works".

 

[mikesw]

It means that God dwelt in Jesus, as a second, separate Person, not that Jesus himself was God (the fullness of deity). Jesus made this clear enough "I am not alone... the one who sent me is with me... the Father [i.e. "the only true God" John.17:3] Dwelling in me, He doeth the works".

Nope. that would have been written as "the Father's deity dwells in him." So the unitarian gets confused on this passage.

 

[TomL]

It means that God dwelt in Jesus, as a second, separate Person, not that Jesus himself was God (the fullness of deity). Jesus made this clear enough "I am not alone... the one who sent me is with me... the Father [i.e. "the only true God" John.17:3] Dwelling in me, He doeth the works".

Do you affirm Christ's pre-incarnation existence?

Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

And his existence was in the form of God .

 

[Peterlag]

Do you affirm Christ's pre-incarnation existence?

Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

And his existence was in the form of God .

There's nothing in the book of Philippians that says Jesus emptied himself of his Godhood. Nothing.

What did Jesus empty himself from?

What the Scriptures say he was... the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, thus, royal blood. He humbled himself from what he was and took on the role of a servant.

After saying that Christ was in the form of God, Philippians 2:6 goes on to say that Christ “considered being equal with God not something to be grasped at.” If Jesus were God, then it would make no sense at all to say that he did not “grasp” at equality with God because no one grasps at equality with himself. Some Trinitarians say, “Well, he was not grasping for equality with the Father.” That is not what the verse says. It says Christ did not grasp at equality with God, which makes the verse nonsense if he were God.

The Greek word morphē does not refer to the essential nature of Christ in that context. If the point of the verse is to say that Jesus is God, then why not just say that? If Jesus is God, say that, don’t say he has the “essential nature of God.” Of course God has the “essential nature” of God, so why would anyone make that point? This verse does not say “Jesus being God” but rather “being in the form of God.” Paul is reminding the Philippians that Jesus represented the Father in every possible way.

From the Septuagint and their other writings, the Jews were familiar with morphē referring to the outward appearance, including the form of men and idols. To the Greeks, it also referred to the outward appearance, including the changing outward appearance of their gods and the form of statues. The only other New Testament use of morphē outside Philippians is in Mark, and there it refers to the outward appearance. Also, the words related to morphē clearly refer to an outward manifestation or appearance. The word morphē refers to an outward appearance or manifestation. Jesus Christ was in the outward appearance of God, so much so that he said, “He who has seen me has seen the Father.” Christ always did the Father’s will, and perfectly represented his Father in every way.