The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[civic]

I wish you would stop pushing your idol on to Christians. You attempt to strip the Father of His exclusive deity is divisive and unChristian. You are speaking like an atheist.

the Father does not have "exclusive" deity thats a fabrication. you are stripping Jesus of His exclusive rights in salvation, eternal life, obedience to Him, life in Him, His exclusive Lordship, His exclusive Sovereignty, His exclusivity as Savior, etc........

 

[Peterlag]

Again you ignore multiple verses and facts

I posted the verses; you just ignored dealing with them.

Seeing as Jesus is God, Isa 44:24 is no problem

The one God is Father, Son, Holy Ghost

Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

You ignore the following points

He is the image of the invisible God

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

You keep posting the same John 1:1, Colossians 1:16, Philippians 2:6 and I keep responding to them in mostly not just a few words but in whole paragraphs and sometimes whole pages. And yet you continue to say I ignore what you post.

 

[Peterlag]

 

[mikesw]

View attachment 2710

oh really? There is no support for such a change in the ancient manuscripts. I guess I am not ready for revisionist unitarian history.

 

[Peterlag]

There is not one single occurrence of the word "Trinity" in the Bible, nor any reference to the concept to be found within its pages.

If the Bible taught that all three members of the Trinity were God, we would expect it to use the titles "God the Son" and "God the Spirit" just as it uses the title "God the Father" - but it never does.

 

[mikesw]

There is not one single occurrence of the word "Trinity" in the Bible, nor any reference to the concept to be found within its pages.

If the Bible taught that all three members of the Trinity were God, we would expect it to use the titles "God the Son" and "God the Spirit" just as it uses the title "God the Father" - but it never does.

We see the Son of God constantly in scripture. For some reason the unitarians do not give any significance to that. Also, other passages point to the deity of Christ. Those are sufficient to defeat the unitarian view.

 

[TomL]

You keep posting the same John 1:1, Colossians 1:16, Philippians 2:6 and I keep responding to them in mostly not just a few words but in whole paragraphs and sometimes whole pages. And yet you continue to say I ignore what you post.

If you read, you will see additions and verses you have not addressed.

Again you ignore multiple verses and facts

I posted the verses; you just ignored dealing with them.

Seeing as Jesus is God, Isa 44:24 is no problem

The one God is Father, Son, Holy Ghost

Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

You ignore the following points

He is the image of the invisible God

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

 

[Doug Brents]

View attachment 2708
Jesus did not create the dinosaurs.

Colossians 1 is not talking about the first creation, the old creation, but about the new creation - of which Jesus is "first fruits" and "first begotten from the dead".

Paul here is speaking of the true purpose of God which centers on the obedience of his son, and the day on which God raised his son from the grave to become the first born of a new creation.

Were the dinosaurs created? Absolutely, yes.
Then Jesus did create them, because He created everything that has been created (John 1:1-3, 14).

 

[FreeInChrist]

Colossians 2:9 is good proof that Jesus Christ was not God. It would make no sense to say that “what God is” dwells in God. It is only because Christ is not God that it makes sense to say that what God is dwells in Christ. Also, the verse uses the word “God” not “the Father.” If Trinitarians were correct that the Father and Christ were two separate “Persons” but both the Father and Christ were “God” then this verse should state that in Christ dwells all the fullness of “the Father.” The verse says “God” is dwelling bodily in Christ, that is, being embodied in him. What God was, all his character and glory, dwelt in Christ in a bodily form. Some Trinitarians recognize that logically what God is could not dwell in God, and so they assert that this verse is referring to the “man” part of Christ (the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is both fully God and fully human. The fact that this is logically impossible by definition is ignored and taken as one of the mysteries of the Faith).

Again, not answering a question.

Toodles

 

[Peterlag]

Again, not answering a question.

Toodles

If you asked why the sun is blue.
And I really did respond by saying the sun is not blue.
You would then say I'm ignoring or not answering about the blue sun.

 

[Peterlag]

Were the dinosaurs created? Absolutely, yes.
Then Jesus did create them, because He created everything that has been created (John 1:1-3, 14).

It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

 

[Peterlag]

If you read, you will see additions and verses you have not addressed.

Again you ignore multiple verses and facts

I posted the verses; you just ignored dealing with them.

Seeing as Jesus is God, Isa 44:24 is no problem

The one God is Father, Son, Holy Ghost

Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

You ignore the following points

He is the image of the invisible God

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh
Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop. It's a debate strategy where one side fires off a massive amount of arguments, points, and claims all in one post with the clear intent to overwhelm and exhaust anyone trying to respond. The purpose of the Gish Gallop is to flood the conversation with so many points that nobody can reasonably address them all, creating the false impression that their arguments are insurmountable or that the other side has no answers.

 

[mikesw]

What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop. It's a debate strategy where one side fires off a massive amount of arguments, points, and claims all in one post with the clear intent to overwhelm and exhaust anyone trying to respond. The purpose of the Gish Gallop is to flood the conversation with so many points that nobody can reasonably address them all, creating the false impression that their arguments are insurmountable or that the other side has no answers.

oh my. That explains what the unitarians are often seen doing here. They will list a bunch of quotes from bible dictionaries and sometimes from other unitarians about the trinity doctrine not being in the scripture text itself. However, this is not often by writers who reject the Trinity. It just is that most of the realize that the deity of Jesus reasonably must be reconciled with the Shema lest the scriptures seem to have contradictions.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If you asked why the sun is blue.
And I really did respond by saying the sun is not blue.
You would then say I'm ignoring or not answering about the blue sun.

But I would say It is Written.... And yourwould counter no its not.

But at least it is an exchange not something ignored.

 

[mikesw]

It seems difficult for people to understand that John 1:1 is introducing the Gospel of John, and not the Book of Genesis. The topic of John is God (the Father, the only God) at work in the ministry of the man Jesus of Nazareth, not the creation of rocks, trees and stars.

it seems difficult for some to understand that John 1:1 is introducing Jesus in the creative process of the universe. Any other idea seems to miss the obvious point of Jesus' preexistence -- and the association of logos with the creative process of the universe found with Philo and Greek philosophers. Any consideration of Greek philosophy involved in this passage must be taken up with John and God, not with we who have observed this connection.

 

[Peterlag]

But I would say It is Written.... And yourwould counter no its not.

But at least it is an exchange not something ignored.

I have told you many times there is no trinity or trinity doctrine mentioned in the Bible and you continue to twist and pull Scripture out of context and tell me that there is. When I show with every verse you quote that you are either using a verse from a bad translation or taking the verse out of context or you do not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in is when you say I'm not answering you. In your mind there is no correct answer to Jesus is God and John 1:3 proves it because John 1:3 does not say Jesus is God. You say I'm ignoring that it says the logos is a him. And I have posted more times than I can count that the logos is not a him. It's an it.

 

[TomL]

What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop. It's a debate strategy where one side fires off a massive amount of arguments, points, and claims all in one post with the clear intent to overwhelm and exhaust anyone trying to respond. The purpose of the Gish Gallop is to flood the conversation with so many points that nobody can reasonably address them all, creating the false impression that their arguments are insurmountable or that the other side has no answers.

What I see here is an avoidance of points.


Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

You ignore the following points

He is the image of the invisible God

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

 

[TomL]

Colossians 2:9 is good proof that Jesus Christ was not God. It would make no sense to say that “what God is” dwells in God. It is only because Christ is not God that it makes sense to say that what God is dwells in Christ. Also, the verse uses the word “God” not “the Father.” If Trinitarians were correct that the Father and Christ were two separate “Persons” but both the Father and Christ were “God” then this verse should state that in Christ dwells all the fullness of “the Father.” The verse says “God” is dwelling bodily in Christ, that is, being embodied in him. What God was, all his character and glory, dwelt in Christ in a bodily form. Some Trinitarians recognize that logically what God is could not dwell in God, and so they assert that this verse is referring to the “man” part of Christ (the doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is both fully God and fully human. The fact that this is logically impossible by definition is ignored and taken as one of the mysteries of the Faith).

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Do you believe all the fullness of deity is in Christ?

 

[Peterlag]

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Do you believe all the fullness of deity is in Christ?

The spirit was given to Jesus without measure meaning he had a good portion of it. Of course that would mean it could have been said of him that all the fullness of God dwelled in him.

 

[Peterlag]

What I see here is an avoidance of points.


Colossians 1:15–20 (NIV84) — 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

You ignore the following points

He is the image of the invisible God

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

All things in heaven were created by him

He is before all things

And thus he is before the things in heaven

It is not until verse 18 the body of the Church is brought up.

Christ pre-existed the world

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

That shows an existence before the creation of the world

Before the world

The world is not a reference to the redeemed here

Before existing in flesh

Phil 2:6–7 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

God himself states
Heb 1:10–12 And, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, but You remain; And they all will become old like a garment, And like a mantle You will roll them up; Like a garment they will also be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.”

There's 11 verses you just posted. Which one do you want me to comment on?