The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:

Verse 3 of John chapter 1 doesn't help your Trinitarian argument because your stubborn claim is debunked by John 1:18 where it says:

I guess you do not follow the discussion very much here. One is that it is stupid to say begotten son if talking about humans. Sonship basically means someone was birthed. It is as bad as speaking of swimming fish. The other thing is that the concept here is not about being birthed but rather is of being the one and only Son. The verse seems to indicate that the Son has seen God so as to be able to declare God. Also other Greek wording says he is the one and only God who is in the bosom of the Father. So the divinity of Christ is evident by the wording of that.

mikesw:

snipping the scriptural quotation from my response at Post 556, so that you can post more nonsense, shows the extent of your denial.

Go back and read what I told you at Post https://berean-apologetics.communit...ircular-in-reasoning.2741/page-28#post-213281 and see if you can grasp the point that I've been making: Everybody within Jesus's vicinity was able to see him. If Jesus had really been in a Trinity and was God, everyone who looked upon him would have died.

Below is what Almighty God Jehovah told Moses.

Exodus 33:17​

Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I will also do this thing that you request, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.”

Exodus 33:18​

Then he said: “Please show me your glory.”

Exodus 33:19​

But he said: “I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah; and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.”

Exodus 33:20​

But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

 

[mikesw]

mikesw:

snipping the scriptural quotation from my response at Post 556, so that you can post more nonsense, shows the extent of your denial.

Go back and read what I told you at Post https://berean-apologetics.communit...ircular-in-reasoning.2741/page-28#post-213281 and see if you can grasp the point that I've been making: Everybody within Jesus's vicinity was able to see him.

Indeed. If Jesus did not exist also as human, no one could see him. DUHHH!!

If I seem to have become impatient in these failed arguments, it is because they are repeated so often without the unitarians learning anything.

If Jesus had really been in a Trinity and was God, everyone who looked upon him would have died.

Below is what Almighty God Jehovah told Moses.

Exodus 33:17​

Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “I will also do this thing that you request, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.”

Exodus 33:18​

Then he said: “Please show me your glory.”

Exodus 33:19​

But he said: “I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah; and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.”

Exodus 33:20​

But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

DUH!! If Jesus were mere human and came in the glory he had before before the world was (John 17:5), people would have been falling dead around him. Thanks for sharing evidence of the divinity of Christ. I know. It is hard to avoid proving his divinity.

 

[Runningman]

Indeed. If Jesus did not exist also as human, no one could see him. DUHHH!!

If I seem to have become impatient in these failed arguments, it is because they are repeated so often without the unitarians learning anything.

DUH!! If Jesus were mere human and came in the glory he had before before the world was (John 17:5), people would have been falling dead around him. Thanks for sharing evidence of the divinity of Christ. I know. It is hard to avoid proving his divinity.

So you confess that Jesus is visible. Scripture teaches the only God is invisible.

1 Tim 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[mikesw]

So you confess that Jesus is visible. Scripture teaches the only God is invisible.

1 Tim 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen

DUH. If God was among humanity being invisible, no one would see him. I can say DUHHH again

It was through the Logos becoming flesh that we can see him. An invisible Immanuel among them would have be nonsensical.

 

[Runningman]

DUH. If God was among humanity being invisible, no one would see him. I can say DUHHH again

It was through the Logos becoming flesh that we can see him. An invisible Immanuel among them would have be nonsensical.

Perfect. So you finally confess Jesus isn't God. That's great progress for you. Sometimes progress can feel so slow and it's easy to lose patience, but times like these remind me why I do this and make it so worth while even if it does turn out to be just a momentary glimpse of light shining through, before being swarmed by darkness again. I am sure you will switch positions again soon, there is a spiritual war raging within you.

 

[mikesw]

Perfect. So you finally confess Jesus isn't God. That's great progress for you. Sometimes progress can feel so slow and it's easy to lose patience, but times like these remind me why I do this and make it so worth while even if it does turn out to be just a momentary glimpse of light shining through, before being swarmed by darkness again. I am sure you will switch positions again soon, there is a spiritual war raging within you.

I confess that Jesus is not God alone. DUHHHH. He did not deny his pre-existence with the Father (John 17:5).

You let delusion control your thinking. That also reflects in your own private doctrines of denial of Christ.

 

[Alter2Ego]

mikesw:

If Jesus were still a god while on earth, humans would not have been able to kill him. What is it about that don't you get? Scripture says he became lower than angels while he was on earth.

Hebrews 2:7​

You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor, and appointed him over the works of your hands.

Hebrews 2:8​

All things you subjected under his feet.” By subjecting all things to him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Now, though, we do not yet see all things in subjection to him.

Hebrews 2:9​

But we do see Jesus, who was made a little lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor for having suffered death, so that by God’s undeserved kindness he might taste death for everyone.

Hmm. After showing Jesus is God and then made lower than angels through incarnation hardly gives you an argument toward the unitarian heresy.

You know what, mikesw? I'm going to nip this in the bud starting now, because you are running from scriptural correction due to your love affair with Christendom's fairytale.

First of all, the Bible is my authority. We will soon see whether it is yours.

2 Timothy 3:16​

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,"



Below are several scriptures followed by questions that address each of the scriptures as well as word definitions. Let's see if you're willing to be corrected by scripture starting now.


"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him." (John 1:18 -- Anderson's New Testament)

John 1 Anderson's New Testament

QUESTION #1 to mikesw: According to John 1:18, no human eye has ever seen God, except for the eyes of his begotten Son, Jesus Christ. TRUE or FALSE?

1 Timothy 6:13​

Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders

1 Timothy 6:14​

to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Timothy 6:15​

which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

1 Timothy 6:16​

the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.


QUESTION #2 to mikesw: According to 1 Timothy 6:16, God alone has immortality and no man has seen or can see him. TRUE or FALSE?



QUESTION #3 to mikesw: People saw Jesus while he was on earth. TRUE or FALSE?


Definition of immortality
"the quality of being able to live or last for ever:

immortality

1. the quality of being able to live or last for ever: 2. the quality of being…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Definition of immortal
": living forever : incapable of dying"

Definition of IMMORTAL

living forever : incapable of dying; continuing forever : everlasting; connected with or relating to immortality… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

QUESTION #4 to mikesw: By definition, an immortal person cannot die. Jesus died. TRUE or FALSE?



Answer those first four questions, and then we shall proceed.

 

[Runningman]

I confess that Jesus is not God alone. DUHHHH. He did not deny his pre-existence with the Father (John 17:5).

You let delusion control your thinking. That also reflects in your own private doctrines of denial of Christ.

Let's pretend John 17:5 is about Jesus literally pre-existing. Even though there are no samples from Scripture about him pre-existing, we will assume that just for fun. For one, it doesn't say Jesus pre-existed as God. Jesus could have pre-existed as an angel, or in God's foreknowledge, but not as God. Recall that immediately before that Jesus already gave the whole cake to the Father, stating explicitly that He is the only true God. That leaves no cake for you to eat since you reject this.

 

[mikesw]

You know what, mikesw? I'm going to nip this in the bud starting now, because you are running from scriptural correction due to your love affair with Christendom's fairytale.

First of all, the Bible is my authority. We will soon see whether it is yours.

2 Timothy 3:16​

"All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,"



Below are several scriptures followed by questions that address each of the scriptures as well as word definitions. Let's see if you're willing to be corrected by scripture starting now.


"No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has revealed him." (John 1:18 -- Anderson's New Testament)

John 1 Anderson's New Testament

QUESTION #1 to mikesw: According to John 1:18, no human eye has ever seen God, except for the eyes of his begotten Son, Jesus Christ. TRUE or FALSE?

1 Timothy 6:13​

Before God, who preserves all things alive, and Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders

1 Timothy 6:14​

to observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Timothy 6:15​

which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords,

1 Timothy 6:16​

the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen.


QUESTION #2 to mikesw: According to 1 Timothy 6:16, God alone has immortality and no man has seen or can see him. TRUE or FALSE?



QUESTION #3 to mikesw: People saw Jesus while he was on earth. TRUE or FALSE?


Definition of immortality
"the quality of being able to live or last for ever:

immortality

1. the quality of being able to live or last for ever: 2. the quality of being…

dictionary.cambridge.org

Definition of immortal
": living forever : incapable of dying"

Definition of IMMORTAL

living forever : incapable of dying; continuing forever : everlasting; connected with or relating to immortality… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

QUESTION #4 to mikesw: By definition, an immortal person cannot die. Jesus died. TRUE or FALSE?



Answer those first four questions, and then we shall proceed.

Whew. The response copy of your post removes your stupid efforts to include definitions. You have however advanced from the Unitarian Pocket Dictionary to the MW.com dictionary.

You have just tried to divert from the actual discussion with your little definitions.

No need to follow this silliness

 

[mikesw]

Let's pretend John 17:5 is about Jesus literally pre-existing. Even though there are no samples from Scripture about him pre-existing, we will assume that just for fun. For one, it doesn't say Jesus pre-existed as God. Jesus could have pre-existed as an angel, or in God's foreknowledge, but not as God. Recall that immediately before that Jesus already gave the whole cake to the Father, stating explicitly that He is the only true God. That leaves no cake for you to eat since you reject this.

deny, deny, deny is the approach of the unitarian.

I will try not responding to more nonsense by you folks tonight. As you can guess, your repeated nonsense makes people dizzy.

Okay. I will add that if John 1 did not exist, and the passage of Before Abraham was, I am then maybe you could make an argument. But you would also have to deny the Jewish Two Powers of Heaven debate. So again this is whack-a-mole. You deny some areas and then another point against you pops up.

 

[Runningman]

deny, deny, deny is the approach of the unitarian.

I will try not responding to more nonsense by you folks tonight. As you can guess, your repeated nonsense makes people dizzy.

I understand, it can be frustrating arguing for something that you are vastly unequipped for. You're arguing with people who have explicit statements from Scripture about who God and Jesus are. It's like you're taking a pea shooter to a tank battle. Not going to work out too well for you.

 

[mikesw]

I understand, it can be frustrating arguing for something that you are vastly unequipped for. You're arguing with people who have explicit statements from Scripture about who God and Jesus are. It's like you're taking a pea shooter to a tank battle. Not going to work out too well for you.

catch my breath catch my breath again

If debates were won with sharing nonsense to no end, you would win.

 

[Runningman]

catch my breath catch my breath again

If debates were won with sharing nonsense to no end, you would win.

Honestly your debate hasn't begun. If you actually had anything that described God as a trinity, suggested He is more than one person, a group, or more than one person, you would have some great points. It's actually pretty amazing how there just isn't even any evidence for it. You would think there would be some examples of people calling God a they, them, or stating God is the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" if that's what they believed. The fact that no one talked of God the way trins do shows that this isn't how people thought of God.

So why not just describe God the way people who knew God do? Just follow Jesus' example and you'll be fine.

 

[mikesw]

Honestly your debate hasn't begun. If you actually had anything that described God as a trinity, suggested He is more than one person, a group, or more than one person, you would have some great points. It's actually pretty amazing how there just isn't even any evidence for it. You would think there would be some examples of people calling God a they, them, or stating God is the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" if that's what they believed. The fact that no one talked of God the way trins do shows that this isn't how people thought of God.

So why not just describe God the way people who knew God do? Just follow Jesus' example and you'll be fine.

you mean like Jews who debated on Two Powers of Heaven, about Paul who used the Shema to resolve a puzzle in Gal 3:19-20, John 1 who clearly showed the divinity of Christ, John 17:5 that shows pre-existence behind Jesus?

Your lack of sufficient rebuttal of passages like this shows your disingenuity.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So you confess that Jesus is visible. Scripture teaches the only God is invisible.

1 Tim 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Invisible is a matter of context. You can't see him. That is for certain.

It all about the senses.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

You're a child dealing in adult things. You have no senses to judge much of anything.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You know what, mikesw? I'm going to nip this in the bud starting now, because you are running from scriptural correction due to your love affair with Christendom's fairytale.

First of all, the Bible is my authority. We will soon see whether it is yours.

No it isn't. You're a "jw". You have an elder you answer to.

Why are you lying like this?

 

[FreeInChrist]

To my knowledge, all of the other Trinitarian bibles steer clear of the word Godhead. You will likely find it only in the KJV.

You are close... you only missed it by 10 more that I could easily find....

Y​ ​ King James Bible​ Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. American Standard Version​ Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man. English Revised Version​ Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man. Webster's Bible Translation​ Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like to gold, or silver, or stone graven by art and man's device. A Faithful Version 29. Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we should not think that the Godhead is like that which is made of gold, or silver, or stone—a graven thing of art devised by the imagination of man; (A Faithful Version) Literal Translations Literal Standard Version​ Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, [an] engraving of art and imagination of man; Young's Literal Translation​ 'Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man; Translations from Aramaic Aramaic Bible in Plain English​ “Men, therefore, because our lineage is from God, we ought not to think that gold or silver or stone carved by the skill and knowledge of a man is like The Godhead.” NT Translations​ Anderson New Testament​ Therefore, being the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhood is like gold, or silver, or stone, sculptured by art and the device of man. Worrell New Testament​ "Being, therefore, God's offspring, we ought not to suppose that the God-head is like gold, or silver, or stone, graven by man's art and device! ​

​

 

[praise_yeshua]

You are close... you only missed it by 10 more that I could easily find....

Y​ ​ King James Bible​ Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. American Standard Version​ Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man. English Revised Version​ Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man. Webster's Bible Translation​ Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like to gold, or silver, or stone graven by art and man's device. A Faithful Version 29. Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we should not think that the Godhead is like that which is made of gold, or silver, or stone—a graven thing of art devised by the imagination of man; (A Faithful Version) Literal Translations Literal Standard Version​ Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, [an] engraving of art and imagination of man; Young's Literal Translation​ 'Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man; Translations from Aramaic Aramaic Bible in Plain English​ “Men, therefore, because our lineage is from God, we ought not to think that gold or silver or stone carved by the skill and knowledge of a man is like The Godhead.” NT Translations​ Anderson New Testament​ Therefore, being the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhood is like gold, or silver, or stone, sculptured by art and the device of man. Worrell New Testament​ "Being, therefore, God's offspring, we ought not to suppose that the God-head is like gold, or silver, or stone, graven by man's art and device! ​

​

They only know what their elder teaches them. They can't think or research for themselves. If they did, they wouldn't be a "jw".

 

[FreeInChrist]

They only know what their elder teaches them. They can't think or research for themselves. If they did, they wouldn't be a "jw".

Think you are right because when evidence is presented, unless all is discredited tells me they
do not even read other they what they wish.

Perhaps they are not allowed to?

 

[360watt]

Some main arguments from Unitarians:

The Father gave Jesus (according to them a mortal man) the authority to forgive sin, cast out demons , walk on water, turn water into wine, send the Holy Spirit etc..

Unitarians also often agree with biblical criticism..and rather than say actually something like God spoke to Moses at the burning bush..they will step back and say something like:

The Hebrew community of the time believed a being claimed to be God spoke to the claimed figure of Moses at the location of a bush claimed to be burning.

The problem with the authority being given to a mortal man argument, is sometimes Jesus would perform miracles under His own authority. He also superseded a whole long list of OT laws by saying what could be done on the Sabbath among other things.

The problem with biblical criticism is it is another form of post modern thinking, where real truth is denied or things are just said to be subjective.