The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Alter2Ego]

So here is the back up verses for Ephesians 4:8-10 from 1 Peter:

1 Peter 3:18-20 KJV
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

360watt:

You are confused. That verse at 1 Peter 3:19 says nothing about Jesus preaching to dead people while Jesus himself was dead and awaiting HIS own resurrection. Neither does it say he "freed captives," as you falsely claimed in your earlier post. In fact, scripture says the following about the dead.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- King James Bible)


If you want to know which "spirits in prison" that verse is referring to, let me know.

 

[civic]

Really, mikesw? Notice the official Trinitarian doctrine below, followed by a verse of scripture in Jesus' own words. Then answer the questions that follows:


Article 1 of Christendom's Trinity:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, POWER, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity

This post is part of a Lenten series on the 39 Articles. Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite pow…

www.sevenwholedays.org

What Jesus Said Regarding His Power:
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 -- New International Version)


QUESTION #1 mikesw: According to the Trinity doctrine, Jesus the Son is equal in power to Jehovah the Father. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #2 mikesw: At John 14:28, Jesus said the Father is greater than he is. TRUE or FALSE?

False dichotomy fallacy

John 14:28
Greater than I ‎meizoon ‎‎mou‎. Ablative case ‎mou ‎after the comparative ‎meizoon ‎(from positive ‎megas‎). The filial relation makes this necessary. Not a distinction in nature or essence (cf. John 10:30), but in rank in the Trinity. No Arianism or Unitarianism here. The very explanation here is proof of the deity of the Son (Dods).

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)

 

[360watt]

'The Father is greater than I'... find the verses around it. It isn't about inferiority and superiority..that's not the context. (Can't believe this is being used again that way).

Jesus ASCENDS soon afterward as one with the Father...the difference is positional..not ontological superiority.

It could also be greater in the sense of Jesus in the flesh and the Father in Spirit.. but even then..Jesus becomes in the Spirit also.

Jesus was more like 'self limiting' in the flesh rather than inferior to the Father.

Voluntarily limiting His God attributes.

You can go back over a thousand years and find renowned commentators saying the same thing.

The context of this verse is not about ontological superiority.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Where, at Ephesians 4:8-10, does it say anything about Jesus being spiritually alive (while his body was dead), and where does it say he freed captives while he was supposed to be dead?

Luke 16:20-24 KJV
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, [21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

This is the abode of the dead.. where the beggar was seperate from Lazarus for ever.. the beggar set for hell .. Lazarus for Paradise.

360watt:

You failed to present scripture that says Jesus freed captives while Jesus HIMSELF was dead for three days, according to scripture at Matthew 12:40. Now you're coming up with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. That is a parable aka an illustration.

 

[360watt]

360watt:

You failed to present scripture that says Jesus freed captives while Jesus HIMSELF was dead for three days, according to scripture at Matthew 12:40. Now you're coming up with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. That is a parable aka an illustration.

Right so it isn't completely clear what Jesus did after death..before resurrection.. but the facts are He was still active in Spirit. I believe scripture does support Him setting free captives in the abode of the dead.

I haven't presented it that well .. but you also don't have to rely on this scripture to show Jesus's deity.

 

[Alter2Ego]

False dichotomy fallacy

John 14:28
Greater than I ‎meizoon ‎‎mou‎. Ablative case ‎mou ‎after the comparative ‎meizoon ‎(from positive ‎megas‎). The filial relation makes this necessary. Not a distinction in nature or essence (cf. John 10:30), but in rank in the Trinity. No Arianism or Unitarianism here. The very explanation here is proof of the deity of the Son (Dods).

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)

civic:

As soon as you can quote scripture that contradicts what Jesus said at John 14:28--which was recorded by divine inspiration of Jehovah God--we can continue this conversation.

I am not going to waste any more of my precious time responding to what you posted above since nothing you stated was written by inspiration of Almighty God.

 

[Alter2Ego]

'The Father is greater than I'... find the verses around it. It isn't about inferiority and superiority..that's not the context. (Can't believe this is being used again that way).

Jesus ASCENDS soon afterward as one with the Father...the difference is positional..not ontological superiority.

It could also be greater in the sense of Jesus in the flesh and the Father in Spirit.. but even then..Jesus becomes in the Spirit also.

Jesus was more like 'self limiting' in the flesh rather than inferior to the Father.

Voluntarily limiting His God attributes.

You can go back over a thousand years and find renowned commentators saying the same thing.

The context of this verse is not about ontological superiority.

360watt:

Why don't YOU find the surrounding verses that contradict Jesus statement that "The Father is greater...."?

Show us where it's not about inferiority and superiority by quoting scripture. Nothing else that you said after the words that I bolded in red is worth responding to. That's nothing but tripe. You're simply making things up as you go while you fail to provide so much as a verse of scripture to support that dribble

 

[Alter2Ego]

360watt:

You failed to present scripture that says Jesus freed captives while Jesus HIMSELF was dead for three days, according to scripture at Matthew 12:40. Now you're coming up with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. That is a parable aka an illustration.

Right so it isn't completely clear what Jesus did after death..before resurrection.. but the facts are He was still active in Spirit. I believe scripture does support Him setting free captives in the abode of the dead.

I haven't presented it that well .. but you also don't have to rely on this scripture to show Jesus's deity.

Below is the answer to your comment that I enlarged and bolded in green. Read the scriptures provided below, and then answer the questions that follow.

John 19:32​

So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him.

John 19:33​

But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.

QUESTION #1 to 360watt: According to John 19:33, Jesus died. TRUE or FALSE?



"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- Legacy Standard Bible)

QUESTION #2 to 360watt: According Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. TRUE or FALSE?

 

[360watt]

Below is the answer to your comment that I enlarged and bolded in green. Read the scriptures provided below, and then answer the questions that follow.

John 19:32​

So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him.

John 19:33​

But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.

QUESTION #1 to 360watt: According to John 19:33, Jesus died. TRUE or FALSE?



"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- Legacy Standard Bible)

QUESTION #2 to 360watt: According Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. TRUE or FALSE?

Compare ecclessiates verse with other scripture on the same subject

 

[360watt]

Below is the answer to your comment that I enlarged and bolded in green. Read the scriptures provided below, and then answer the questions that follow.

John 19:32​

So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first man and those of the other man who was on a stake alongside him.

John 19:33​

But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs.

QUESTION #1 to 360watt: According to John 19:33, Jesus died. TRUE or FALSE?



"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- Legacy Standard Bible)

QUESTION #2 to 360watt: According Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. TRUE or FALSE?

Jesus' body was dead..not His Spirit. As before.. there is solid support from scripture Jesus was alive in Spirit after death before resurrection.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Really, mikesw? Notice the official Trinitarian doctrine below, followed by a verse of scripture in Jesus' own words. Then answer the questions that follows:


Article 1 of Christendom's Trinity:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three persons, of ONE substance, POWER, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity

This post is part of a Lenten series on the 39 Articles. Article I: Of faith in the Holy Trinity There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite pow…

www.sevenwholedays.org

What Jesus Said Regarding His Power:
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 -- New International Version)


QUESTION #1 mikesw: According to the Trinity doctrine, Jesus the Son is equal in power to Jehovah the Father. TRUE or FALSE?

QUESTION #2 mikesw: At John 14:28, Jesus said the Father is greater than he is. TRUE or FALSE?

 

[FreeInChrist]

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5 -- King James Bible)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Your spirit cannot die. You soul only if God chooses for it to be.

Mathew 10:28 KJVAnd fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is not our rotten flesh that goes anywhere except rotting in the ground... it is the reat of you that survives

And that is not me saying it that is the Holy Bible and your preferred translation KJV.

Thus it was with Jesus until it was time for the bodily resurrection....

 

[amazing grace]

Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Your spirit cannot die. You soul only if God chooses for it to be.

Mathew 10:28 KJVAnd fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is not our rotten flesh that goes anywhere except rotting in the ground... it is the reat of you that survives

And that is not me saying it that is the Holy Bible and your preferred translation KJV.

Thus it was with Jesus until it was time for the bodily resurrection....

If any part of Jesus was alive until his bodily resurrection - he did not die for your sins. DEATH is the CESSATION OF LIFE.

When Ecc. 12:7 says the spirit shall return unto God who gave it --- what is 'spirit'? under ruach - we have as the main definitions wind, breath, mind, spirit . . . under spirit - animation, listed attitudes, dispositions, emotions, mental activity - God's given gift, etc.
(I broke this down simply so I would encourage looking it up for a fuller, lengthier definition)

So what goes back to God - I don't believe it is 'animation' we are dead there is no longer animation; mental activity.
Ecc. 9:5,10 says 'the dead no nothing' --- 'no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom is in the grave'; we can't contradict that verse . . . so again, what goes back to God?

 

[civic]

Jesus' body was dead..not His Spirit. As before.. there is solid support from scripture Jesus was alive in Spirit after death before resurrection.

yes they must redefine death to give it another meaning.

 

[civic]

If any part of Jesus was alive until his bodily resurrection - he did not die for your sins. DEATH is the CESSATION OF LIFE.

When Ecc. 12:7 says the spirit shall return unto God who gave it --- what is 'spirit'? under ruach - we have as the main definitions wind, breath, mind, spirit . . . under spirit - animation, listed attitudes, dispositions, emotions, mental activity - God's given gift, etc.
(I broke this down simply so I would encourage looking it up for a fuller, lengthier definition)

So what goes back to God - I don't believe it is 'animation' we are dead there is no longer animation; mental activity.
Ecc. 9:5,10 says 'the dead no nothing' --- 'no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom is in the grave'; we can't contradict that verse . . . so again, what goes back to God?

death is a cessation of physical life, nice try but a major failure.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
be dead, death, die, lie dying, be slain.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 599: ἀποθνῄσκω

ἀποθνῄσκω, imperfect ἀπέθνῃσκον (Luke 8:42); 2 aorist ἀπέθανον; future ἀποθανοῦμαι, Romans 5:7; John 8:21, 24 (see θνῄσκω); found in Greek writings from Homer down; to die (ἀπό, so as to be no more; (cf. Latinemorior; English die off or out, pass away); German absterben,versterben);
I. used properly

1. of the natural death of men: Matthew 9:24; Matthew 22:24; Luke 16:22; John 4:47; Romans 7:2, and very often; ἀποθνῄσκοντες ἀποθνῄσκοντες subject to death, mortal, Hebrews 7:8 (Buttmann, 206 (178)).

2. of the violent death — both of animals, Matthew 8:32, and of men, Matthew 26:35; Acts 21:13 etc.; 1 Peter 3:18 L T Tr WH text; ἐν φόνῳ μαχαίρας, Hebrews 11:37; of the punishment of death, Hebrews 10:28; often of the violent death which Christ suffered, as John 12:33; Romans 5:6, etc.

 

[amazing grace]

death is a cessation of physical life, nice try but a major failure.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
be dead, death, die, lie dying, be slain.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 599: ἀποθνῄσκω

ἀποθνῄσκω, imperfect ἀπέθνῃσκον (Luke 8:42); 2 aorist ἀπέθανον; future ἀποθανοῦμαι, Romans 5:7; John 8:21, 24 (see θνῄσκω); found in Greek writings from Homer down; to die (ἀπό, so as to be no more; (cf. Latinemorior; English die off or out, pass away); German absterben,versterben);
I. used properly

1. of the natural death of men: Matthew 9:24; Matthew 22:24; Luke 16:22; John 4:47; Romans 7:2, and very often; ἀποθνῄσκοντες ἀποθνῄσκοντες subject to death, mortal, Hebrews 7:8 (Buttmann, 206 (178)).

2. of the violent death — both of animals, Matthew 8:32, and of men, Matthew 26:35; Acts 21:13 etc.; 1 Peter 3:18 L T Tr WH text; ἐν φόνῳ μαχαίρας, Hebrews 11:37; of the punishment of death, Hebrews 10:28; often of the violent death which Christ suffered, as John 12:33; Romans 5:6, etc.

Where do those definitions distinguish anything but a physical death? Jesus had to die ---- if any part of him 'survived' 'went back to God' BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION . . everything is empty nonsense ---- THEN HE DID NOT DIE.

I don't even have the words to convey how utterly ridiculous this is . . . You are denying clear scripture in Ecclesiastes.

 

[civic]

Where do those definitions distinguish anything but a physical death? Jesus had to die ---- if any part of him 'survived' 'went back to God' BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION . . everything is empty nonsense ---- THEN HE DID NOT DIE.
I don't even have the words to convey how utterly ridiculous this is . . . You are denying clear scripture in Ecclesiastes.

physical death does not mean cease to exist, the body is dead. the soul/spirit is not.

next fallacy

 

[101G]

If any part of Jesus was alive until his bodily resurrection - he did not die for your sins. DEATH is the CESSATION OF LIFE.

When Ecc. 12:7 says the spirit shall return unto God who gave it --- what is 'spirit'? under ruach - we have as the main definitions wind, breath, mind, spirit . . . under spirit - animation, listed attitudes, dispositions, emotions, mental activity - God's given gift, etc.
(I broke this down simply so I would encourage looking it up for a fuller, lengthier definition)

So what goes back to God - I don't believe it is 'animation' we are dead there is no longer animation; mental activity.
Ecc. 9:5,10 says 'the dead no nothing' --- 'no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom is in the grave'; we can't contradict that verse . . . so again, what goes back to God?

To all.
There are two Deaths, the First and Second death, as well as two resurrections. Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." the First death is of the body which is natural death... the Loss of blood from the body. supportive scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Leviticus 17:14 "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

this is the FIRST and natural death. the spirit at natural death returns to God who gave it. well the Lord Jesus is GOD, the author of Life. So Spiritually he is alive, not naturally, but eternally for he live by his own, and the only source of life, his Spirit.

101G

 

[amazing grace]

To all.
There are two Deaths, the First and Second death, as well as two resurrections. Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." the First death is of the body which is natural death... the Loss of blood from the body. supportive scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Leviticus 17:14 "For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off."

this is the FIRST and natural death. the spirit at natural death returns to God who gave it. well the Lord Jesus is GOD, the author of Life. So Spiritually he is alive, not naturally, but eternally for he live by his own, and the only source of life, his Spirit.

101G

What is the 'spirit' that goes back to God? Is it your breath? is it the gift God gave - the gift of holy spirit? What is meant here by 'spirit'?

Well, Jesus is NOT God . . . As the Father has life in himself so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. (John 5:26) Just as God the Father has life in himself he has given the Son also to have life in himself.
The life of the flesh is in the blood - when your heart quits pumping - blood is no longer flowing through you - you are DEAD,
At the funeral home they will drain all liquid from your body . . . you are DEAD. You are dead until Christ returns and calls you out from among the tombs, i.e. graves [John 5:18] and raises your spiritual body. . . . That is what resurrection is for!!!!

 

[amazing grace]

physical death does not mean cease to exist, the body is dead. the soul/spirit is not.

next fallacy

Death is the ending of life. When something ceases to breathe, lose bodily function; it has ceased to live, it is dead.
If it is dead, then it is not living. Something cannot 'be dead' and 'not dead' at the same time and in the same literal sense.

Can one be spiritually dead yet alive? - yes. One can be living, yet without God and without Christ without hope, i.e. dead in a spiritual sense.

IOW, the absence of soul, the body is truly and literally dead. God breathed into Adam the breath of life and Adam became a living soul. . . . Without the holy spirit, the person is figuratively, or spiritually, dead.