The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Runningman]

sorry 1 Cor 8:6 "your pet verse " says there is only one God and it says there is only one Lord

as they say: you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

next fallacy

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 shows that Paul didn't believe that many gods are God. He didn't believe in a "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" (many gods) but rather in one singular God known as the Father. Jesus being a different Lord than the Father is irrelevant. It only demonstrates a hierarchy, not equality. The Father is said to be greater than Jesus numerous times in the Bible.

 

[civic]

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 shows that Paul didn't believe that many gods are God. He didn't believe in a "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit" (many gods) but rather in one singular God known as the Father. Jesus being a different Lord than the Father is irrelevant. It only demonstrates a hierarchy, not equality. The Father is said to be greater than Jesus numerous times in the Bible.

One God
One Lord

Simple as that, I guess you don’t understand what One means

Next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

One God
One Lord

Simple as that, I guess you don’t understand what One means

Next fallacy

Jesus is never called the One God. Case closed. Nor is he the one and only Lord. There is a different Lord who sent Jesus (Acts 3:20). Yes, 1 Corinthians 8:6 says there is "one Lord" because Paul was referring to the domain of the church. The Lord of heaven and earth (not Jesus) is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Acts 17:24,25) So that isn't one singular Lord. Hence the hierarchy. Obviously the Bible never conflates the Lordship of Jesus with the Lordship of God. Many examples of Jesus not having the authority of God. Make sense?

 

[civic]

Jesus is never called the One God. Case closed. Nor is he the one and only Lord. There is a different Lord who sent Jesus (Acts 3:20). Yes, 1 Corinthians 8:6 says there is one Lord because Paul was referring to the domain of the church. The Lord of heaven and earth (not Jesus) is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Acts 17:24,25)

One means One so stop changing the passage and running from it. Quit diverting from 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Oh and BTW the Son is called God/ YHWH many times. So much for your failed argument.

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. The Unitarian argument has once again failed and proven to be wrong.

Next fallacy

hope this helps !!!

 

[Runningman]

One means One so stop changing the passage and running from it. Quit diverting from 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Fine, let's pretend the rest of the Bible doesn't exist and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 is all there is. One God the Father. Jesus being the one Lord doesn't equate him with God.

 

[civic]

Fine, let's pretend the rest of the Bible doesn't exist and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 is all there is. One God the Father. Jesus being the one Lord doesn't equate him with God.

Yes it does since both were there in the creation account in the same verse.

End of discussion the context kills your position.

BTW no unitarian has even won an argument with John 17:3 or 1 Corinthians 8:6 since it proves just the opposite of their claims.

 

[Hosanna]

If God is infinite and we are finite, we will never be fully able to understand him. The fullness of what he is will exceed our powers to grasp. Thus, we cannot expect ever to resolve fully this great mystery.

As for circular in reasoning lets just do the "Hokey Pokey"

 

[FreeInChrist]

Wow. Scripture teaches the Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, a title Jesus is never called. Scripture also teaches the Lord of heaven and earth is God the Creator, even more titles Jesus is never called. The one and only God is the Father.

Wow is right..... Jeepers, @Runningman

Look at the scriptures below..... 22 of them and I think you should copy these because you will be the onlty person in historty
that has a listing of scriptures that proved the Heavenly Father walked on Earth among His people.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CLAIMS..... Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, a title Jesus is never called

So now you have ... I think 22 unless I miscounted (could be) the proof you have been wanting all these years that since Scripture teaches the Father is the Lord.... you can show that He has been right here... at least as long as Jesus was alive. Maybe they did father and son things????? IDK,IDC........

But while you are copying these, there is one important thing and that is there are a couple that you might want to
just ignore.... You will know them when you read them

Are you excited.... ?

Matthew 11​

25At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.​

​

Acts 17​

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.​

And the Lord (the one and only true God, the Father) sent Jesus Christ.

​

Acts 3​

20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.​

Matt 8: 2 And behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."

Matt 8: 25 And they went and woke him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing."

Matt 15:25 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."

However, after the resurrection, the title “Lord,” as applied to Jesus, became much more than a title of honor or respect. Saying, “Jesus is Lord,” became a way of declaring Jesus’ deity.

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'

From then on, the apostles’ message was that Jesus is Lord, meaning “Jesus is God.” Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost contained that theme: “Let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah”


Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Acts 10:36 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, 'The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.'
Jude 1:4 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

Luke 19:31 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?’ you shall say this: ‘The Lord has need of it.’"
John 13:13 You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am.

Psalm 34:8 Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!
1 Peter 2:3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Isaiah 8:13 But the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another 's feet.

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Phil 2: 9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Jesus is never called the One God. Case closed. Nor is he the one and only Lord. There is a different Lord who sent Jesus (Acts 3:20). Yes, 1 Corinthians 8:6 says there is "one Lord" because Paul was referring to the domain of the church. The Lord of heaven and earth (not Jesus) is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Acts 17:24,25) So that isn't one singular Lord. Hence the hierarchy. Obviously the Bible never conflates the Lordship of Jesus with the Lordship of God. Many examples of Jesus not having the authority of God. Make sense?

That is not what you said above.

 

[mikesw]

Finding three of something in the Bible and randomly saying "that's God" because that's what you feel isn't a valid yardstick for truth. Where does the Bible say "The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are God? Don't give me a bunch of verses scattered around the Bible where the writer was talking about a bunch of different contexts. Where did anyone succinctly describe or explain God to be a trinity known as the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?" Never happened, which is what we have been trying to get you to open your eyes and ears to. What the Bible does say about God is that the only God is the Father. Why do you reject what is clear about God for what is not clear about God?

there you go with hyperliteralism. You have to have God conform scripture to tell you more obviously about the divinity of Christ and the triune nature. The text of scripture is beyond your understanding but that is not my fault. And I again remind you that Jesus and the Spirit are not separate gods. We then realize they are in union as that only God. But you just cling to LDS concepts that there are many gods and then that is the idea you are rejecting in your arguments. go figure.

 

[Runningman]

Yes it does since both were there in the creation account in the same verse.

End of discussion the context kills your position.

BTW no unitarian has even won an argument with John 17:3 or 1 Corinthians 8:6 since it proves just the opposite of their claims.

So to be clear, since we are pretending that only 1 Corinthians 8:6 exists right now then, then the only God is called the Father. If I were you, I would stay as far away from 1 Corinthians 8:6 as possible.

 

[Runningman]

If God is infinite and we are finite, we will never be fully able to understand him. The fullness of what he is will exceed our powers to grasp. Thus, we cannot expect ever to resolve fully this great mystery.

As for circular in reasoning lets just do the "Hokey Pokey"

Why do you think so many trinitarians think they can understand God based on their own philosophy and reasoning? And whoever said God is a great mystery?

 

[civic]

So to be clear, since we are pretending that only 1 Corinthians 8:6 exists right now then, then the only God is called the Father. If I were you, I would stay as far away from 1 Corinthians 8:6 as possible.

And the Only Lord is the Son, co- Creator of all things hence equal with the Father.

You should stay away from that verse since it refutes you and supports Trinitarians , not unis

 

[Runningman]

That is not what you said above.

What did I not say?

 

[Runningman]

there you go with hyperliteralism. You have to have God conform scripture to tell you more obviously about the divinity of Christ and the triune nature. The text of scripture is beyond your understanding but that is not my fault. And I again remind you that Jesus and the Spirit are not separate gods. We then realize they are in union as that only God. But you just cling to LDS concepts that there are many gods and then that is the idea you are rejecting in your arguments. go figure.

Literalism is better to understand the Bible with than emotionalism. Would you rather follow the Bible based on what the plain text says or would you rather follow the Bible based on what you "feel" is true?

 

[Runningman]

Wow is right..... Jeepers, @Runningman

Look at the scriptures below..... 22 of them and I think you should copy these because you will be the onlty person in historty
that has a listing of scriptures that proved the Heavenly Father walked on Earth among His people.

YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CLAIMS..... Father is the Lord of heaven and earth, a title Jesus is never called

So now you have ... I think 22 unless I miscounted (could be) the proof you have been wanting all these years that since Scripture teaches the Father is the Lord.... you can show that He has been right here... at least as long as Jesus was alive. Maybe they did father and son things????? IDK,IDC........

But while you are copying these, there is one important thing and that is there are a couple that you might want to
just ignore.... You will know them when you read them

Are you excited.... View attachment 2382View attachment 2383?



Matt 8: 2 And behold, a leper came to him and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, if you will, you can make me clean."

Matt 8: 25 And they went and woke him, saying, "Save us, Lord; we are perishing."

Matt 15:25 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."

However, after the resurrection, the title “Lord,” as applied to Jesus, became much more than a title of honor or respect. Saying, “Jesus is Lord,” became a way of declaring Jesus’ deity.

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'

From then on, the apostles’ message was that Jesus is Lord, meaning “Jesus is God.” Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost contained that theme: “Let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah”


Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Acts 10:36 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Luke 6:5 And He was saying to them, 'The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.'
Jude 1:4 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful."

Luke 19:31 If anyone asks you, ‘Why are you untying it?’ you shall say this: ‘The Lord has need of it.’"
John 13:13 You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am.

Psalm 34:8 Oh, taste and see that the Lord is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!
1 Peter 2:3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

Isaiah 8:13 But the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

1 Peter 3:15 but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another 's feet.

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
Acts 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Phil 2: 9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What's your point? Jesus is not the Lord or sent himself and he was never called the Lord of heaven and earth. Actually, those are just appetizers. There's about a dozen other names and titles that God and Jesus don't share and there are a handful of titles that God shares with other humans, Jesus included. If you can agree with the Bible we can go from there.

 

[Runningman]

And the Only Lord is the Son, co- Creator of all things hence equal with the Father.

You should stay away from that verse since it refutes you and supports Trinitarians , not unis

You said before the Father is not Lord. I showed you where the Bible explicitly calls the Father Lord and you told me to stay in 1 Cor. 8:6. Ok, so let's stay there. Following your reasoning, Jesus is not the One God. Can't have your cake and eat it too Mr. Civic.

 

[mikesw]

Where does Galatians 3:19-20 did Paul recognize Jesus as God? Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Wasn't the promise from God to Abraham . . . Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say 'And to offsprings' referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' who is Christ. . . . for if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. (16,18)

No mediator to be possible between God and the Son within the promise since this promise only has one party. But this only makes sense because the Shema says they are one. Verse 16 had shown that Jesus is a promisee and the promise is fulfilled as shown in v 19. So you miss the basis and subtlety when these details are missed. The Galatians then knew the divinity of Christ beforehands.

Yes, I agree that the three are mentioned together. It seems Clement of Rome is not suggesting or indicating a Trinity doctrine either . . . We do have one God, and we do have one Messiah and we have the gift of holy spirit which Jesus poured out on the day of Pentecost --- and one calling in Christ.

Great. you are a step toward realizing the divinity of Christ. It is not as if Jesus is mere human sandwiched between two divine figures.

I agree in a straightforward meaning of John 17:3 - The Father is the only true God.

You fail by missing John 17:5 that shows the preexistence of Christ. You already clarified that a human does not preexist., That is why this confirms Jesus' divine existence. Pretty simple and straightforward observation.

I believe 'with the glory I had with you, before the world existed' is in the prophetic perfect tense and refers to a promised glory Jesus would receive upon his completion of accomplishing the work that he was given to do, i.e. upon his death and resurrection.

Failed. Prophecy does not create pre-existence

The prophetic perfect tense is a legitimate literary device ---- this allows Jesus to speak of his future glorification as a completed event, since its fulfillment is absolutely certain in God's eyes. Please note: I am not denying scripture . . . I am denying the concept of literally existing before you literally exist. I don't believe there are spirits somewhere up in the sky waiting to enter a body to be born . . . that is a Greek philosophy concept.

You are half right. Jesus as a human did not pre-exist. But Jesus in divinity pre-exists. It is right when you reject spirits existing in the sky. So you show some insight why Christ's pre-existence makes him different from common humans. You also should know that Paul and John did not follow Greek philosophy. So that sort of philosophy does not play into this discussion.

But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, 'I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.' . . . 'You have said so. (IOW, yes) But from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming in the clouds of heaven.' . . . If Dan. 7:13,14 is showing the Divinity of Christ, i.e. his being God, who is the Ancient of Days he presented himself to? If he is God, why did the Ancient of Days have to give to him dominion and glory and a kingdom, etc.?

Uh. Giving this from the Father to the Son is a normal progression. Maybe you have heard of that in scenarios among humans.

But isn't it true the 6 verses do say that the baptizing was in the name of Jesus? I am not denying Jesus's words at all - they are there in black and white but the evidence of scripture lean toward being baptized in the name of Jesus.
Aren't you in a manner, denying the 6 scriptures in Acts - in favor of 1 verse?

I am saying 6 verses do not deny Matt 28:19-20. You are really getting confused here.

Thanks for your concern but I'm not sorry at all! It's great to be clear minded as to who God and Christ are . . .
If the Father is the ONLY TRUE God that excludes Jesus from being God.

Then your concept of Christ as a separate god is really just making an argument against LDS, not against the Triune nature of God.

 

[civic]

You said before the Father is not Lord. I showed you where the Bible explicitly calls the Father Lord and you told me to stay in 1 Cor. 8:6. Ok, so let's stay there. Following your reasoning, Jesus is not the One God. Can't have your cake and eat it too Mr. Civic.

Equal co- Creators who made all things who pre existed creation

 

[mikesw]

Okay . . . I will deal with that.

Addressed in previous post . . . No I do not reject Daniel 7:13,14 --- I reject your understanding of the verse.

You reject Dan 7:13,14 and also the biblical recognition of Jesus' claim to divinity shown in Matt 26:64-65 where the High Priest viewed Jesus' claim as blasphemy -- and Matthew did not deny that Jesus was claiming to be God. But bible interpreting itself is not helpful to you.

I believe God said in his scripture that he is not a man . . . why would God come to earth as one of his created beings, a human being? Why would God enter the womb of a woman to be born?
Didn't God promise Moses: “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen. . . And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. . . . I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. (Deut. 18:15,18) Didn't God promise David: When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son.(2 Sam. 7:12-14a)
Were these prophecies about Jesus? Doesn't it sound like the Messiah would be a human being? So, why would God be so deceitful . . . Why would Jesus carry on that deceit?

Wow. you are going devilish in your argument against the divinity of Christ. Then you treat his divinity as denial of his humanity so you can treat this as impossible for God to do this. Prophecy has mixed descriptions of the divinity of Christ and his humanity and of his victory while also suffering. OT is more complex that you treat it.
For God sending his Son incarnate to die on the cross is the greatest expression of love and of identification with the human experience so that Jesus could be a unique priest to us. Also, that went beyond the sacrifice that Abraham was willing to obey God on in the sacrifice of Isaac. Just pay attention to the details of scripture.

Yeah . . . he could have said that but the terminology used in scripture is not in our 21st century vocabulary. Jesus was greater, superior and foreknown; 'before Abraham'.

That is a bad argument with no logic to it. Jesus could have said that he came in fulfillment of prophecy rather than saying he pre-exists.

The creeds were developed over a period of time and basically were developed over the exact issue that is still argued today. Who is Jesus Christ?

The creeds and confessions were updated to expose the heresies against the divinity of Christ.

Sin and weakness of humanity is the reason that people stray from believing in a Triune God? I'll have to disagree.
I see the doctrine as something that demotes Almighty God to a human being and diminishes the victorious accomplishments of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ by raising his status to Almighty God.

The unitarian diminishes who Christ is so that the unitarian can claim his own ability to have what are only the divine Son's qualities.

Are you bringing up John 1:18 as defense for where the language of the Nicene Creed originated?

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Remember Jesus prayed to the Father - And this is eternal life, that they know YOU the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. . . . In that rendering we have 'God who is at God's side' or 'God who is in the bosom of God'????

Sorry if John 1:18 is confusing to the unitarian. I think the problem is that you cannot understand two uses of "God" -- one as a person in the Triune God and the other as the Father. Maybe you can explain why you deny this verse.

The vast majority of other Greek manuscripts, including later ones, have "only begotten Son". . . The "God" reading is characteristic of the Alexandrian textual tradition, while almost all other textual traditions (Western, Byzantine, Caesarean) read "Son". So, I guess we could say the translation is questionable but out of all God's creation - he did give humanity the capability of reason and logic. I prefer the rendering - 'the only Son, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.'

So you play statistics instead of holding to the reality that both versions of John 1;18 are historic and acceptable. It likely wsa that later manuscripts thought that "Son" would make the verse read easier.

Yeah, I'll stick with being a Unitarian.

Sure. denial is the easy path.
Sorry if there is a little bit of frustration in my response. Some people have failed to make an convincing argument against the Triune God even after being here upwards from a year and a half. They keep making the same basic exegetical errors and proof texting and do not consider the passages that reject unitarianism.