The Trinity and all of its supporting doctrines are all circular in reasoning

[Doug Brents]

How bout Acts 5?

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”

Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit = Ananias lied to God.

The Father is Spirit and the Spirit is the power of God. God is Holy and God is Spirit therefore God is THE Holy Spirit.
There is also the use of holy spirit as the gift people receive when they repent and are baptized. This gift of holy spirit is the spirit of truth, the helper, the promise of the Father that Jesus poured out on the day of Pentecost. NOT A THIRD UNNAMED PERSON OF THE TRIUNE GOD.

That proves that the Holy Spirit is also God. But it does not prove that the Holy Spirit is the Father. Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, so lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. But as John 14:26 shows, the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit.

 

[amazing grace]

That proves that the Holy Spirit is also God. But it does not prove that the Holy Spirit is the Father. Yes, the Holy Spirit is God, so lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. But as John 14:26 shows, the Father is NOT the Holy Spirit.

Okay - God is the Holy Spirit. Now if the Father is the only true God then it would follow that the Father is also the Holy Spirit.

John 14 only shows that what Jesus is talking about is NOT THE Holy Spirit but the gift of holy spirit which comes from the Father and was poured out on the day of Pentecost.

What is this referring to? Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified...... Is this the same that is being spoken of in John 14 - the comforter, the helper, the advocate?

 

[Peterlag]

Nope, I will not take a class from someone I already know is a false teacher.

You could come away from Leonard's class knowing who the Holy Spirit is. What the gift of the spirit is that you keep saying is God. Who Jesus Christ is that you keep saying is God. It could fix you all up.

 

[Doug Brents]

Okay - God is the Holy Spirit. Now if the Father is the only true God then it would follow that the Father is also the Holy Spirit.

God is the only God. The Father is part of that God. The Son (Jesus) is part of that God. The Holy Spirit is part of that God.
The Father is not the Son, nor is He the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father, nor is He the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is He the Son.

John 14 only shows that what Jesus is talking about is NOT THE Holy Spirit but the gift of holy spirit which comes from the Father and was poured out on the day of Pentecost.

If the Holy Spirit were just a thing, a gift, then He would not be called a "He" by Jesus, nor would it be said that He resides in our heart, and we are His temple.

What is this referring to? Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified...... Is this the same that is being spoken of in John 14 - the comforter, the helper, the advocate?

Yes.

 

[Doug Brents]

You could come away from Leonard's class knowing who the Holy Spirit is. What the gift of the spirit is that you keep saying is God. Who Jesus Christ is that you keep saying is God. It could fix you all up.

If attending his class would make me believe that the Holy Spirit is either just a gift of a feeling and understanding, etc. (like you seem to believe), and not a real person (like Scripture says He is), then I would come away from his class worse off than I am now.

If attending his class would make me believe that Jesus is not God, then I would come away from his class worse off than I am now.

No thanks!!!!!

 

[Peterlag]

Here's a question that flies over the head of every Trinitarian...

The word "Father" is not God and neither is the word "God" because both are names and can also be said they are titles. So what is God?

There's not 3 of me because I can be called uncle, brother, and father. I am not a cousin. They don't write on the package when I give blood... "husband blood" because I'm a human man. What is God?

 

[mikesw]

Here's a question that flies over the head of every Trinitarian...

The word "Father" is not God and neither is the word "God" because both are names and can also be said they are titles. So what is God?

There's not 3 of me because I can be called uncle, brother, and father. I am not a cousin. They don't write on the package when I give blood... "husband blood" because I'm a human man. What is God?

That is the problem of unitarian interpretation. They flatten then language and then cannot comprehend scriptures.

The idea of theos is a type of existence or essence. The designation as theos can figuratively be used as if many exist in this form -- such as a pantheon. The reality is that there is only one true theos. The question we face today is how this Theos has been revealed to us. Obviously with John 1 and Thomas's statement, Jesus is of that -- and perhaps more clearly in his resurrection.

The question is good and obviously been misunderstood by unitarians.

 

[amazing grace]

God is the only God. The Father is part of that God. The Son (Jesus) is part of that God. The Holy Spirit is part of that God.
The Father is not the Son, nor is He the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father, nor is He the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is He the Son

God has 3 parts. Isn't that partialism? Partialism is a Christian theological heresy that defines the Trinity as three distinct parts ---- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that combine to form one God.

If the Holy Spirit were just a thing, a gift, then He would not be called a "He" by Jesus, nor would it be said that He resides in our heart, and we are His temple.

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit."

The helper is the holy spirit (or spirit of truth). The spirit, being a neuter noun, is not a person and since the helper is equated to the spirit, then we must conclude that although represented by a masculine noun and masculine pronouns, it should also be translated as neuter. The other reasonable exception would be if the figure of speech, personification is in use. Jesus himself said “these things I have spoken to you in figurative language…”

What is this referring to? Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified...... Is this the same that is being spoken of in John 14 - the comforter, the helper, the advocate?

Yes.

And isn't John 7:39 be talking about the gift of holy spirit?

 

[Doug Brents]

God has 3 parts. Isn't that partialism? Partialism is a Christian theological heresy that defines the Trinity as three distinct parts ---- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that combine to form one God.

Nope, there is no "partialism".
Grace's body is fully Grace. Grace's soul is fully Grace. Grace's spirit is fully Grace. In the same way:
The Father is fully God. Jesus is fully God. The Holy Spirit is fully God.

And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the holy spirit."

The helper is the holy spirit (or spirit of truth). The spirit, being a neuter noun, is not a person and since the helper is equated to the spirit, then we must conclude that although represented by a masculine noun and masculine pronouns, it should also be translated as neuter. The other reasonable exception would be if the figure of speech, personification is in use. Jesus himself said “these things I have spoken to you in figurative language…”

The Holy Spirit, whom Jesus foretold would be given to the Church, is God's Spirit, the Spirit that was hovering over the deep in Gen 1, the Spirit that rested on Moses and the prophets, the Spirit that lives within my heart today, the Spirit that translates what I think and say to God in terms I myself don't even understand (Rom 8:26-27). Notice here that the Spirit has a mind of His own; He is not just holy gifts from God.

And isn't John 7:39 be talking about the gift of holy spirit?

No. It is talking about the Holy Spirit who would come to live in the hearts of those who love Jesus and are washed in His blood.

 

[amazing grace]

Nope, there is no "partialism".
Grace's body is fully Grace. Grace's soul is fully Grace. Grace's spirit is fully Grace. In the same way:
The Father is fully God. Jesus is fully God. The Holy Spirit is fully God.

God is the only God. The Father is part of that God. The Son (Jesus) is part of that God. The Holy Spirit is part of that God.
The Father is not the Son, nor is He the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father, nor is He the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father, nor is He the Son.

And if all are the one God then each of them are God, right?
So if God is the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit is God......AND
if the Father is God and God is the Father and God is the Holy Spirit then the Father is also the Holy Spirit.
if the Father is fully God and the Son is fully God and the Holy Spirit is fully God then EACH ARE GOD..... UH-OH

The Holy Spirit, whom Jesus foretold would be given to the Church, is God's Spirit, the Spirit that was hovering over the deep in Gen 1, the Spirit that rested on Moses and the prophets, the Spirit that lives within my heart today, the Spirit that translates what I think and say to God in terms I myself don't even understand (Rom 8:26-27). Notice here that the Spirit has a mind of His own; He is not just holy gifts from God.

I agree that the holy spirit is how God in Christ dwell in us via the new birth, via being born again of the Spirit which I believe is through the gift of holy spirit given to those who have faith in Christ. It is the baptism of the holy spirit, aka being filled with the spirit, aka rivers of living water, aka the promise of the Father Jesus told the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem for, the power from on high to embolden them in their walk, that which Jesus poured out on the day of Pentecost, that which we are given to help us become more like Christ.

No. It is talking about the Holy Spirit who would come to live in the hearts of those who love Jesus and are washed in His blood.

You don't think that in this verse Jesus was talking about the gift of holy spirit but THE actual HOLY SPIRIT?
Exactly --- the indwelling of the spirit via the gift of holy spirit..... Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
So, the Holy Spirit wasn't around in the Old Testament? Moses didn't have the Spirit of God, upon him? The prophets of God did not have the spirit of God upon them?

The new birth, the baptism with holy spirit, the repentance, baptism and receiving the gift of holy spirit because Jesus has been glorified -- is what I consider John 7:39 to be talking about.