The misuse and abuse of John 17:3 by Unitarians to promote Unitarianism.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Thanks for asking.
This is not correct.
In contrast with what most Muslims believe, we baha'i believe Jesus was literally crucified. What died, though, was his body.
He was not defeated, although his enemies believed he had effectively defeated him as Messiah.
His Ultimate Reality lives forever, because it is derived from The Word of God, which is coeternal with God.
It is in this sense that we interpret the Quranic verse.
The enemies of Jesus believed that, by killing him, they were killing the Christ, the Messiah, His Cause, his Gospel. They associated his Message with the Messenger. "If we kill the Messenger, we kill the Message".
However, the Kingdom of God is forever, and Christ is the King forever of such Kingdom.
The Gospel preached by the early Christians revolved about the fact that Christ was alive, victorious, and that He would come to establish visibly his Kingdom forever. Sometimes they used in Scriptures the figures of physical resurrection because that was compatible with popular myths within the audience the apostles preached to. However, sometimes they don't. For example, Paul also speaks of resurrection in a spiritual way, saying we are already resurrected and ascended to heaven when we live in Christ.
So, although I don't believe that Jesus Christ has a body with nerves, blood, skin, hair, bones, liver, kidneys... a body that needs to breath and eat and urinate, I do believe that Jesus Christ is alive and victorious.
Johann
Well-known member
I want to bring your attention to a core doctrine that Christians hold as non-negotiable, @Pancho Frijoles-the literal crucifixion and literal resurrection of Jesus Christ, which you seem to deny while leaning toward non-literal interpretations.
Before diving into the deity of Yeshua, we need to address this foundational issue first. You’re familiar with Christian doctrines and what we believe as written in our Scriptures, correct?
Why would this violate reason in multiple ways? Paul, in his 13 epistles, is emphatic about the Cross and the physical resurrection of Yeshua. For example:
1 Corinthians 1:18: "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
1 Corinthians 15:3-4: "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures."
Where would you even look for non-literal interpretations when the Scriptures themselves clearly spell it out? The literal crucifixion and resurrection are foundational truths upon which the gospel stands, as affirmed by passages like Romans 10:9-10: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
How do you reconcile such clarity with your interpretation?
Fostering Reflection: By asking questions, Bahá'ís encourage others to reflect on their own beliefs and understanding rather than providing rigid answers that might shut down dialogue.
Avoiding Conflict: This approach aligns with the Bahá'í principle of maintaining kindness and respect in all interactions.
Promoting Unity: Questions can open a space for shared exploration rather than reinforcing division through dogmatic answers.
In essence, the Bahá'í approach to dialogue and asking questions is rooted in their spiritual teachings, promoting mutual understanding, open-mindedness, and unity in conversations.
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I'm not trying to negotiate on those doctrines, my friend.
I want you to remain Christian.
What I want to stress is that adhering to those doctrines is not necessary for God to forgive anyone. That's my point.
In that respect, I do want you to change your mind. I do.
If you believe in physical resurrection, based on the passages from Scriptures describing his resurrection as physical and literal, and that helps you to love Jesus more and follow his steps, good for you! I congratulate you. I don't want you to change anything about it.
Now, if you think that it is just and fair for God to send people who do not believe in Jesus physical resurrection to an eternal torture, then I have a BIG problem with that... and I am ready to debate and refute such concept.
Correct.
I would be glad to share my understanding in a separate thread, my friend.
Please open one up and tag me.
Johann
Well-known member
The Literal Death and Resurrection of Jesus’ Body
Your claim that only Jesus' body died, but not His "Ultimate Reality," is inconsistent with the New Testament portrayal of His resurrection. Christianity asserts the bodily resurrection of Jesus, not a merely spiritual continuation of His existence.
Luke 24:39: Jesus, after His resurrection, specifically said, "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
This verse directly refutes the idea that His resurrection was non-physical. Jesus presented His physical body as evidence of His victory over death.
John 20:27: Jesus invited Thomas to touch His wounds, saying, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe."
This demonstrates that the risen Christ possessed the same body that had been crucified, albeit glorified.
2. Misinterpretation of the Qur'anic Verse
The Baha'i interpretation of the Qur'anic denial of Jesus’ death (Surah 4:157-158) as a symbolic survival of His "Cause" rather than His physical life is incompatible with the Christian gospel.
The New Testament emphasizes that without the resurrection, faith is meaningless.
1 Corinthians 15:14-17: "If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. ... And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."
Paul ties the entirety of Christian hope to the bodily resurrection of Jesus, not a metaphorical or symbolic survival of His message.
3. Allegation of Resurrection as a Cultural Accommodation
Your claim that the apostles used "figures of physical resurrection" to appeal to cultural myths misrepresents the apostolic testimony.
The resurrection accounts in the Gospels and epistles are clear, detailed, and central to the message, not mere adaptations to cultural expectations.
Acts 2:31-32: Peter explicitly states, "He [David] foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses."
The apostles risked their lives to proclaim the bodily resurrection of Christ, a claim that was scandalous to both Jewish and Greek audiences (1 Corinthians 1:23), showing that it was not designed to align with popular myths.
4. Misunderstanding of Paul’s Spiritual Resurrection Language
While Paul does speak of believers being "raised with Christ" spiritually (e.g., Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 3:1), this is a theological application of the believer's union with Christ, not a denial of His bodily resurrection. Paul consistently affirms both the physical resurrection of Christ and the future resurrection of believers’ bodies:
1 Corinthians 15:42-44: "So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. ... It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body."
The term "spiritual body" refers to a glorified physical body, not a disembodied state, as evidenced by Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances.
5. Jesus’ Humanity and Glorified Body
Your argument that Jesus cannot have a body with "nerves, blood, skin, hair, bones," etc., reflects a misunderstanding of the Christian teaching on the resurrection body.
Jesus' glorified body is physical, but no longer subject to death or decay. As Paul explains:
Philippians 3:21: "He will transform our lowly body to be like His glorious body, by the power that enables Him even to subject all things to Himself."
Far from being constrained by physical limitations, the glorified body is perfectly suited for eternal life, just as Jesus demonstrated post-resurrection by eating (Luke 24:42-43) and appearing in different places (John 20:19).
6. Jesus as Alive and Victorious
While the Baha'i perspective affirms that Jesus is "alive and victorious," the Christian understanding ties this victory to His physical resurrection.
It is not merely His message or "Ultimate Reality" that lives, but His entire person, including His glorified body.
Romans 6:9: "We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over Him."
The bodily resurrection of Jesus is central to the Christian gospel and cannot be reduced to a symbolic or spiritual concept. The New Testament repeatedly affirms the physical reality of Jesus' resurrection as the cornerstone of faith. Denying this essential doctrine undermines the gospel’s power and hope for humanity's future resurrection.
Wouldn't you agree that Scripture’s consistent testimony demands a more literal understanding of these events? @Pancho Frijoles?
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Physical Resurrection and Its Purpose
The physical resurrection of Jesus is not just an isolated doctrine but is central to the Christian faith because it demonstrates God’s power over death and confirms the promises of eternal life. 1 Corinthians 15:17 says, "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins." The physical resurrection assures us that Jesus' sacrifice was accepted by God and that He is victorious over sin and death-not just spiritually, but completely.
If someone denies the physical resurrection, they may inadvertently deny the foundation of Christian hope, as seen in Romans 10:9: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." This belief isn’t about mere intellectual assent but about trust in the work God accomplished in history.
Eternal Consequences
I understand your concern about the idea of eternal punishment. However, it’s important to clarify that the Christian faith teaches that God does not desire anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Eternal separation from God (often described as hell) isn’t about God being unjust or unfair, but about human choice to reject Him and His offer of salvation.
Jesus Himself said, "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John 3:18).
The resurrection is an invitation, not a condemnation. The message of the gospel is that through Jesus’ death and resurrection, God has opened the way for all to receive eternal life-not as a punishment for not believing in a doctrine, but as an act of love offering reconciliation to humanity.
The Debate on Fairness
Regarding fairness, the Bible reveals a God who is both just and merciful. Justice requires accountability for sin, but mercy provides a path for forgiveness through Jesus. Romans 6:23 explains, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
It's not merely disbelief in the resurrection that results in eternal separation, but a rejection of the relationship God offers through Christ. People are judged not because they were "tricked" or "confused," but because they knowingly reject the light of truth revealed to them (John 3:19-21). That’s why Christians are called to share the gospel with love and patience.
Debating Eternal Punishment
I’m happy to discuss the concept of eternal punishment if you’d like, as it’s a topic that requires careful consideration of Scripture and theology. I would approach this with humility, acknowledging that God's justice is far beyond human comprehension (Isaiah 55:8-9).
However, my focus isn’t on "winning" a debate but on ensuring that you understand the Christian perspective of a God who loved the world so much that He gave His Son for our salvation (John 3:16). His resurrection is a testament to that love.
Please give me a reason why I should continue this dialogue, especially since you are already familiar with the Christian faith?
J.
I would be curious to know how Allah deals with and cures the sin infection of man. If my memory serves me right, there was an account of some angel reaching into Muhammad's body and prying out the sin he possessed. Is that how Bahai understand man can be cured of sin?
Johann
Well-known member
I have the answer, but I'll wait for @Pancho Frijoles to respond @synergy.
I’m close to wrapping up my dialogue with him, as he doesn’t seem to accept the core doctrines clearly laid out in Scripture, despite being familiar with them.
This conversation is going in circles, and ultimately, each of us is responsible for working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, as we are commanded to test the spirits.
Jesus is the only way, and there is no other. His gospel is the true gospel, not one delivered through successive messengers.
J.
While I do respect your views and appreciate the kindness and transparency of your posts, I do not agree with some of your teaching. For instance, I do not believe man's "needs" have changed over the generations which create a NEED for different Laws, or different teachers, or a different way of life. An evil deed today, would be also evil 4000 years ago, and will still be evil years after I am dead.
For me, I have the Inspired Word of God, and I know there are many books written by men who profess to know God. But there is but One Way to live in this life according to the God who inspired this book called the "Bible", in my belief.
Ecc. 12: 12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
And according to the Messiah prophesied in this same book.
Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
I have the oracles of God in my own home and have been warned in them about seeking knowledge from other sources, especially from other men who Profess to know God.
So why would I seek another Book? Why would I seek out other teachers? Why would I seek out a different Christ? To do so would be a "work" of unbelief of the God, and subsequent Savior promoted in this Book that I hold as Holy, in my view.
For this reason, I do not seek out Baptist preachers, or SDA preachers, or Catholic preachers or Baha'i preachers. Nor do I seek out other professed Christs, like Muhammad or Buddha or Baháʼu'lláh or Zoroaster or any other self-proclaimed Messiah. I hold no ill will towards you for doing so, because you are not professing to be a Christian. And it seems Jesus was most angry with the mainstream preachers of His Time for "Professing to know God but were disobedient to Him and were teaching falsehoods about Him that when followed caused men to transgress God's commandments.
Everyone "Yields themselves" servants to obey something. I choose to strive against Sin as defined by the God of Abraham in the Holy Bible. And I will not be detoured by this world's religious system or the thousands and thousands of differing religious sects that make up this system, from striving to enter this narrow path.
It is a great life, having lived it for almost 30 years now, though not very popular with the religious secs and businesses which surround me.
I understand the analogy. I just don't believe that I need to keep changing teachers as I grow in the knowledge of God. The same teacher that instructs me in the milk of the Word, can also instruct me in the Meat of the Word. And I have found that my teacher uses many things to show me His Way and to expose the leavens harbored in my heart. Little children, circumstances, other religious men, I have even been shown a thing or two from men who are not professing Christians. In each case, it was the One Teacher who bought me to "All Truth".
It is Paul's teaching that the Holy Scriptures he taught from is trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". Would this not be true for a babe in Christ, and also the grown man who by exercise of use is grown and still growing in the knowledge of the Lord?
John 14: 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
It seems Jesus said that those who believe on Him, would do the greater works. What does it mean to "Believe on Him"? That HE is the ONE Prophesied to be the High Priest of God, Yes? How many High Priests does God need? Why would we look for another?
My friend, if it is true that the Spirit of God was in Abraham, Moses, Baháʼu'lláh and Mohammad, but the Prophesied High Priest of God is Yeshua, and you believe they all have the God of Abraham's Spirit in them, why not adopt Jesus as your High Priest? I don't mean to adopt the religions of this world who call Jesus Lord, Lord but do not what HE says. They are too many to count. But if all these prophets were directed by the same God, why adopt any of this world's religions, and just trust the Works of God and His High Priest, as declared in the Bible?
Anyway, it is good, in my view, to have such discussions and I thank you for your reply.
May God direct us all to His Appointed High Priest.
This is fascinating. I ask you questions and show you undeniable truths about this world's religions who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and you continue as if I didn't ask you anything, and obsess instead, about a kind man that doesn't claim to be a Christian at all.
The Jesus of the Bible once said;
Matt. 7: 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
It seems it isn't enough to know the beam exists in your eye. Or confess the beam in your eye. Jesus said to remove it, cast it out. I believe this is because it is the Beam that causes men not to see clearly, not the knowledge that the beam exists.
Johann
Well-known member
Correction: "Being kind" doesn't guarantee you a ticket to heaven. What makes matters worse is that @Pancho Frijoles has confessed he is not a Christian, despite being fully aware of the way, the Christian faith, and the Jesus "of the Bible."
Romans 3:23 – "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
This verse establishes that everyone has sinned and is separated from God. No one is righteous on their own.
Romans 6:23 – "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The consequence of sin is death (spiritual separation from God), but God offers the free gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:8 – "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Despite our sin, God loved us so much that He sent Jesus to die for us, offering the way to reconciliation with Him.
Romans 10:9-10 – "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
Salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ-believing that He died and was resurrected-and confessing Him as Lord.
Romans 10:13 – "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
This verse assures that anyone who calls on Jesus, asking for salvation, will receive it.
All have sinned and fall short of God's glory.
The consequence of sin is death, but God offers eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Jesus died for our sins while we were still sinners.
Salvation comes through faith in Jesus-believing and confessing Him as Lord.
Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord can be saved.
This for @Pancho Frijoles sake.
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I agree with you in that the basic spiritual needs of people are the same across time and geographies.
That's why I also believe that the core, eternal gospel, is the same and has always been the same.
So I apologize for not being clear.
When I said needs, I was thinking in the need to be explained certain truths certain way so that people can understand and act accordingly.
So, the symbols, terms, allegories, norms or secondary laws, social organization, even political organization, etc. changes over time, because man changes.
To keep with the example of education, the atom is the same... but our way to explain it to a student will change as the student needs and is able to grasp more detail.
So, to a five year old child perhaps atoms will be tiny balls of matter that compose every thing. Depending on how these tiny balls are arranged, we will have water, stones, plants, or stars. As the child grow, we will use other models, like a nucleus formed by small balls (protons and neutrons) around which electrons (even smaller balls) go in circles like planets around the sun. Later on, we will explain that the particles in the nucleus are indeed made up by other even smaller balls (quarks) and that electrons are more like clouds where they MAY exist at a given time... and so on and so forth.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Is it really central to your life, Johann?
How the fact that Jesus has a physical body affects your spiritual life?
Visualize your day since you wake up in the morning to the time you go to sleep at night.
Whether Jesus has lungs or not does not affect your love for him, and the way you follow your steps.
If Jesus appeared right now on earth, would you be able to tell the real Jesus from a fake Jesus based on any physical feature?
Would you reject or accept Jesus based on his height, weight, skin complexion, presence or absence of a beard?
Would you reject or accept a Jesus who has no toes or male genitalia?
From my side, I love Jesus regardless of whatever physical feature he has or could have.
I am a doctor and like the study of human Physiology and Anatomy. However, I would love Jesus the same if He does photosynthesis as a plant, or is currently accomplishing a mission in a planet among intelligent octopuses, where Christ displays eight limbs as an octopus.
I love Jesus the same because my love for him does not depend on his anatomy and physiology.
My question to you is: DOES YOUR LOVE FOR JESUS DEPEND ON HIS ANATOMY AND PHYSIOLOGY?
I guess the answer is No, it does not depend on that.
So, why would you consider to believe Jesus has a human anatomy (or any kind of human anatomy) as a requirement for salvation?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
For baha'is, "being kind" means you have already started to live in heaven. Otherwise you wouldn't be kind, as kindness is a fruit of the spirit.
Certainly, some evangelical leaders don't like that.
They don't like to admit that a non-Christian can go from being violent to meek. From adulterous to faithful.
They don't like it because, in their view, the transformation of a life, the miracle of being born again, can happen only in those who have assented to certain doctrines about the deity, blood atonement and physical resurrection of Christ.
Well, they are wrong.
Johann
Well-known member
I've already answered clearly, @Pancho Frijoles, but it seems you have a tendency to respond with more questions rather than directly engaging with the topic at hand.
I also find it concerning that, despite knowing the Way and the Christian faith, you avoid the central message of the Cross, the death, and the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, choosing instead to embrace a crossless gospel. You seem eager to question Christians who may appear unstable in their faith, yet when questioned yourself, you remain evasive.
2 Corinthians 5:16 – "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer."
Paul tells the Corinthians that while they once knew Christ in the flesh (referring to His earthly, physical form), they no longer view Him in that way. The focus has shifted from a physical understanding of Jesus to knowing Him through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 1:18 – "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."
Paul emphasizes that the cross is the power of God for those who are saved, while it seems foolish to those who reject Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:2 – "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."
Paul states that his focus was solely on the message of Christ and His crucifixion, highlighting its centrality to the gospel.
Galatians 6:14 – "But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."
Paul expresses that his only boast is in the cross of Christ, which has changed his relationship to the world.
Romans 6:6 – "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."
Paul teaches that believers’ old sinful nature was crucified with Christ, and through that, they are set free from the power of sin.
Philippians 2:8 – "And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."
Paul speaks of Jesus' humility and obedience, going to the point of death on the cross for the sake of mankind.
Colossians 2:14-15 – "Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."
Paul describes how Jesus, through His death on the cross, removed the penalty of sin and triumphed over the spiritual powers of evil.
1 Corinthians 1:23-24 – "But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
Paul emphasizes the centrality of the crucified Christ, which is seen differently by various groups but is the power and wisdom of God for those who believe.
These passages reflect Paul's deep focus on the cross, its significance for salvation, and how it serves as the ultimate expression of God's power and love.
End of discussion friend, we have nothing in common.
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I see your point.
I encourage you to think: Why didn't God send Jesus once and for all since the beginning?
Why did God waited for millenia? Why did God send messenger after messenger, prophet after prophet, to convey the same essential message?
Why did Jesus ascended to God instead of staying here, on this earth, to keep teaching us?
And if Jesus had to ascend to God, why would He need to send Another Comforter? He could just had said whatever He had to say and go, without the need of anyone else, do you agree?
Please reflect on that. God's communication with men does not seem to be a single, once-for-all event, but a permanent process in history.
Just something to think about, my friend.
Johann
Well-known member
Well, you are in error, speaking contrary to what stands written in my Bible friend.For baha'is, "being kind" means you have already started to live in heaven. Otherwise you wouldn't be kind, as kindness is a fruit of the spirit.
Certainly, some evangelical leaders don't like that.
They don't like to admit that a non-Christian can go from being violent to meek. From adulterous to faithful.
They don't like it because, in their view, the transformation of a life, the miracle of being born again, can happen only in those who have assented to certain doctrines about the deity, blood atonement and physical resurrection of Christ.
Well, they are wrong.
Isa 53:1 Who has believed our message,
and to whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
Isa 53:2 For [Or “And”] he went [Or “grew”] up like a shoot before him,
and like a root from dry ground.
He had no form and no majesty that [Or “and”] we should see him,
and no appearance that [Or “and”] we should take pleasure in him.
Isa 53:3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of suffering, and acquainted with [Or “knowledgeable of”] sickness,
and like one from whom others hide their faces, [Literally “hiding of face from him”] he was despised,
and we did not hold him in high regard.
Isa 53:4 However, he was the one who lifted up our sicknesses,
and he carried our pain,
yet [Or “and”] we ourselves assumed him stricken,
struck down by God and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But [Or “And”] he was pierced [Or “wounded”] because of our transgressions,
crushed because of our iniquities;
the chastisement for [Or “of”] our peace [Or “healing”] was upon him,
and by his wounds [Hebrew “wound”] we were healed. [Literally “it was healed for us”]
Isa 53:6 All of us have wandered about like sheep;
we each have turned to his own way;
and Yahweh let fall on him
the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet [Or “and”] he did not open his mouth;
he was brought like a lamb to the slaughter,
and like a sheep is dumb before its shearers,
so [Or “and”] he did not open his mouth.
Isa 53:8 He was taken by restraint of justice,
and who concerned himself with his generation?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
he received a blow because of the transgression of my people.
Isa 53:9 He made [Or “gave”] his grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet [Or “And”] Yahweh was pleased to crush him;
he made him sick. [Literally “he made sick”]
If she [Or “you”] places [Or “makes”] his life a guilt offering, [Or “compensation”]
he will see offspring.
He will prolong days,
and the will of Yahweh will succeed in his hand.
Isa 53:11 From the trouble of his life [Or “soul”] he will see; [Dead Sea Scrolls add “light”]
he will be satisfied.
In his knowledge, the righteous one , my servant, shall declare many righteous, [Or “right”]
and he is the one who will bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore, I will divide to him a portion among the many, [Or “great”]
and with the strong ones he will divide bounty,
because [Literally “Instead of that”] he poured his life out to death
and was counted with the transgressors;
and [Or “yet”] he was the one who bore the sin of many
and will intercede for the transgressors.
The Bible teaches that evildoers or those who are unrepentant can sometimes appear to be kind or show acts of goodness, but these actions do not necessarily indicate true righteousness or a heart aligned with God's will. Here are a few scriptures that discuss this:
Matthew 7:21-23 – "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"
Here, Jesus warns that performing outward acts (including signs of kindness or even miraculous deeds) does not necessarily mean a person is truly righteous. Even evildoers may do good things for various reasons, but their actions do not guarantee salvation.
Luke 6:33-35 – "But if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High."
Jesus points out that doing good to those who are good to you is not a mark of true righteousness, as even sinners can do that. True Christian goodness goes beyond what the world considers kind or good.
Romans 2:4-5 – "Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart, you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God."
This passage addresses people who may experience God's kindness, yet remain unrepentant and continue in their evildoing. Even when sinners may experience God's goodness or show kindness, it doesn't absolve them of their need for repentance.
Titus 3:3-5 – "For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."
This passage highlights the contrast between the past sinful nature of believers and the mercy of God. It shows that kindness can appear in a sinner’s life, but salvation is not earned by any good work or act of kindness but through God's mercy.
Proverbs 12:2 – "A good man obtains favor from the Lord, but a man of wicked intentions He will condemn."
This verse shows that despite good actions or kindness, a person with wicked intentions or a heart of evil will not receive favor from God. Their actions might appear good but are not enough to merit God's approval if their hearts are not right.
These scriptures show that while evildoers may sometimes do kind or good acts, these actions are not enough to change their standing before God. True goodness and righteousness come from a transformed heart, repentance, and a relationship with Christ.
Exodus 23:13 – "And in all things that I have said to you be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth."
God commands Israel not to mention the names of other gods. This passage emphasizes the importance of honoring God's name and not even speaking of false gods.
Deuteronomy 6:14-15 – "You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are around you (for the Lord your God is in your midst, a jealous God), lest the anger of the Lord your God be aroused against you and destroy you from the face of the earth."
This passage warns against following after false gods and stresses that the Lord is a jealous God who will not tolerate His people turning to other gods.
Deuteronomy 12:3-4 – "You shall tear down their altars, break their sacred pillars, and burn their wooden images with fire; you shall cut down the carved images of their gods and destroy their names from that place. You shall not worship the Lord your God with such things."
Here, God commands His people to destroy the symbols and names of false gods, ensuring that their worship is pure and dedicated to the true God alone.
Psalm 16:4 – "Their sorrows shall be multiplied who hasten after another god; their drink offerings of blood I will not offer, nor take up their names on my lips."
David speaks of the dangers of following after false gods, stating that he will not even utter their names.
Isaiah 42:8 – "I am the Lord, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to carved images."
God declares that He will not share His glory with anyone, not even with false gods or idols. His name is sacred and should not be used in reference to anything other than Himself.
Isaiah 46:9 – "Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me."
God affirms His uniqueness and supremacy, warning against even the mention or acknowledgment of false gods. He is the only true God.
1 Corinthians 10:20 – "Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons."
Paul warns the Corinthians not to participate in idolatry, as sacrifices to false gods are ultimately sacrifices to demons.
These scriptures emphasize that God's people are to avoid even speaking of false gods or acknowledging them in any way. The Bible calls for exclusive devotion to the one true God, and warns that any association with idols or false gods is harmful to the spiritual well-being of believers.
My Yeshua is far superior than your messengers friend. My High Priest, Prophet and King.
End of dialogue @Pancho Frijoles.
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Your curiosity may be disappointed on that subject.
It's nothing but the same old story, you know... God is just merciful, merciful, merciful, merciful.... a thing some evangelicals find too boring to discuss or preach.
I don't know about that account. Your memory may be better than mine.
I do remember, though, another account: a seraphim (which is a being similar to a flying snake) atoning the sins of Isaiah by touching his lips with a live coal.
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.” (Isaiah 6:6,7)
Do Jews believe that sins can be cured by flying snakes using live coals?
Johann
Well-known member
By denying the literal Cross, death, and resurrection of Yeshua Ha-Mashiach, and replacing Him with a superficial understanding of Jesus alongside Muhammad and all the successive "messengers," I genuinely fear for your soul.
No need to respond.
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I do not fear for your soul.
I am 100% sure God loves you
I am 100% sure you love Him, so
I am 100% sure you are already with Him and will be with Him forever.
Dear readers:
I do believe in the literal crucifixion of Jesus.
But my point is not whether doctrine X is right or wrong.
My point is that demanding a person to adhere to doctrine X to receive the forgiveness of God is unsupported, biblically and logically... and can lead to moral wickedness, by sending billions of people from all religions to eternal physical and mental torture.
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