Not sure who you are addressing
I did think you are a messianic Jewish person, but there is nothing wrong with that
Seeing as Jesus is one person, the person experienced death but that just means his body was separated from the rest of him
The misuse and abuse of John 17:3 by Unitarians to promote Unitarianism.
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I did think you are a messianic Jewish person, but there is nothing wrong with that
Seeing as Jesus is one person, the person experienced death but that just means his body was separated from the rest of him
Ok
I was addressing the false statement that Pancho rarely quoted scriptures. Moses prophesied of a Great Prophet to Come. David Prophesied of a High Priest of God to Come "After the Order of Melchizedek". Isaiah Prophesied of a "Man of Sorrows" to come. I believe Jesus is this Man.
Is. 53: 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
He is so rejected that men must defy God and create an image of Him as a very handsome man to draw men away from Him and His Father, and towards their religious businesses with their 501 3c's and manmade shrines of worship.
I have said, and will say again, that I hope Pancho will come to accept the Jesus "of the Bible" as this Man that the Prophets and Moses prophesied of. A Man that was raised from the dead and given immortality, the first of "many" men to receive this gift of God, or as Paul calls Him, "The First fruit".
1 Cor. 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become "the firstfruits of them that slept". 21 For since "by man" came death, "by man" came also the resurrection of the dead.
I do not believe the Bible supports the creation of the image of God in the likeness of some random long haired men's hair shampoo model. I do not believe the Jesus "of the Bible" or His Father, the One True God according to Him, would ever advocate such a religious practice given God forbids such idolatry.
I am hopeful and have no doubt that if Pancho is truly seeking the Kingdom of God and "HIS" Righteousness, as we are all instructed to "do", that God will give him to Jesus "To show him in the way that he should go" as HE did for me.
What I hope he doesn't do, is adopt the images of God in the likeness of men mainstream "Christianity" has created, nor adopt their high days they created in worship of this image, nor do I desire that he follow the traditions of mainstream "Christianity" in rejecting God's Judgments and Righteousness in favor of their own judgments and righteousness.
I do not believe Jesus was immortal God while walking the earth, nor do I believe HE overcame sin, temptation and death, "because" He is God and God cannot Sin, cannot be tempted and cannot die, as is promoted by "Many" who come in His Name.
To me, someone who calls Jesus Lord, Lord, but rejects God's Commandments and Judgments, even teaching against them, is far more dangerous to God's People than Islam, Buddha, or even Atheists.
I believe this because the Jesus of the Bible believed this.
Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, "and of the end of the world"?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For "many" "shall come in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall" deceive many.
And Paul said there are many false teachers who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ.
Pancho doesn't come in Christ's Name, claiming HE is truly the only Christ. He openly confesses that he isn't an "Apostle of Christ". But he does believe that the Commandments, Judgments and Statutes of the God of Abraham, that Jesus walked in, "is" the way to be accepted of God.
But There are "many", on this very forum, and many more in this world's religious system, who come in Christ's Name, who preach that Jesus is the only Christ, but teach that God's Judgments, Commandments and Statutes Jesus walked in, is not the Way to be accepted of God.
And this same Jesus "of the Bible" did say:
John 10: 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, "though ye believe not me", believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
So Tom, I am eager to discuss Scriptures with Pancho because he is kind and will actually answers questions asked of him honestly. And I have already learned from him because the "Works of Jesus" are important to him. Something that rarely happens on this forum. And who knows if he will come to see the Christ Jesus as the only way to His Father. And even if he doesn't, he isn't promoting "iniquity" as an expectable lifestyle for the children of God.
Which I believe is a far greater danger for people who call Jesus Lord, Lord.
Johann
Well-known member
I think you’re confused and denying the Deity of the Messiah-Gnosticism seems to be running rampant on this forum.
Who is Christ Jesus to you? Not God? Just a man?
The more you post, the clearer it becomes what you’re leaving unsaid.
J.
My brother, I know you are convinced you are my teacher, superior in knowledge and faithful works even as you have said. And therefore, must ignore Paul's words, or any Word of Scripture that I post or any understanding that I share which is not aligned with yours. This is a universal tradition of this world's religions and is in large part, why I "Came out of her" so many years ago.
And so even this reply will be met with indifference by you, as you have already convinced yourself of your own superiority. And this is fine with me. My Father teaches me every day, I learn something new about His Word every week and have for 30 years, and will no doubt, as long as I live, if my heart remains open for His Teaching. I am far from having a perfect understanding of God. But I do know about Anna, who was a poor widow woman who heard the Gospel of Christ from Moses being read on the Sabbath days, and believed it, and as a result understood God's Salvation better than all the Pharisees and scribes and Gamaliel's of her time, having faith in the Lord's Christ even before HE was born.
And I also know that the Gospel of Christ was shown to Abraham, Ninevah, Sodom and Egypt, long before Moses introduced Israel to the Gospel of Christ, which didn't profit them not being mixed with Faith, like with Abraham, Ninevah, Caleb and David.
Therefore, knowing in my heart that God's Word doesn't return void, and that my replies and questions will continue to go unanswered, I must move on as you suggested, or as it is written "shake the dust".
I do thank you for the discussion, such as it was.
Johann
Well-known member
I’m very selective about who I engage with online, and if you’re expecting me to react to your replies-that’s not going to happen.
Walk your talk; don’t just talk your walk.
I’ll let you know if I’m interested in having any kind of conversation with you.
J.
And yet his Jesus is subordinate to men who came after him
but why do you imagine it is rare that anyone holds as important the works of Jesus?
Ok
Johann
Well-known member
That isn't what Pancho is saying in my understanding. He simply believes that the Same Spirit of God, which was in the man Jesus, was the same Spirit of God that was in the man Muhammad.
I don't agree with this part of his philosophy. But at least he is willing to have an honest discussion about what the scriptures actually say and is asking and answering questions in a kind and transparent manner. You can't say the same about many who call Jesus Lord, Lord on this forum.
It isn't my imagination, its undeniable truth. Let's see if you are willing to answer some questions.
Would or did Jesus ever create, promote or partake in an image of God in the likeness of some random man?
Would or did Jesus ever partake of, or otherwise observe any manmade high days created in worship of an image of God in the likeness of anything on earth or in heaven, including an image in the likeness of a man?
Would or did Jesus ever reject His Father's Judgments concerning what is clean and holy, and adopt instead the traditions of a religious sect which existed in the world God placed Him in?
Would or did Jesus ever transgress God's commandments so that HE could walk in the religious traditions of men?
Would or did Jesus ever reject the "Feasts of the Lord", and replace them with popular manmade high days observed by many in the world God placed HIM in?
And lastly, would or did Jesus ever teach for doctrines the commandments of men?
All of these "works" are works promoted by the literally thousands of religious sects and businesses of this world. But in the Scriptures, no man of faith, no member of the church of God, no disciple, no prophet of God and most importantly the Jesus "of the bible" never walked, behaved, or otherwise practiced these works.
Does it matter? Maybe not. But it is for certain the undeniable truth.
So in my view, it is clearly rare in the religions which exist in the world God placed me in, that someone holds the "works of Jesus" as important at all. But it is undeniable truth that in this world's religious system, the Prophesy of Jer. 23:17 truly comes to pass, "and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you".
Sadly, most religious men spend their time justifying themselves and their religion, as opposed to coming to the Light "that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (Not in man).
1 Check Baha'i beliefs. They hold later revelation and prophets to be greater than earlier revelation or prophets
2 Anyone who equates Muhammed and Jesus is far from any sort of truth
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Are you telling us that a person must pray to Jesus in order to be considered a Christian?
That's not what Paul taught.
Paul could have seized the opportunity to indicate that men can have an intercessor before God through a God-man, called Jesus.
Paul didn't do that. Not just he didn't do that... he chose to use the term "Man".
Moses was an effective intercessor before God. Moses didn't need to be a God-man to do that.
God cannot be a man. A man cannot be God.
They are mutually exclusive categories.
There have never been god-men, except in pagan mythologies.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear Studyman
Yes, this is what I sustain.
We baha'i believe that no Manifestation of God is greater than other, as they all "soar the same heaven and sit on the same throne" (Bahá'u'lláh). Their ultimate reality is The Word of God, which originates from God and is inherent to God (John 1:1).
We do believe that each revelation is "greater" for each successive civilization and circumstance, in the sense that it fits evolving needs.
It is like in school: The teacher who taught you first grade is not "greater" than the teachers who taught you second or third grades. Yet, in each grade you got a "greater" education because you were also an older kid with growing needs and capacities.
Sometimes it has nothing to do with chronological order or expanding capabilities: rather, with how well it fits a special circumstance.
For example: the education that a girl with Down's syndrome get in a specialized school and curriculum is "greater" than the one he would receive in a standard school. Indeed, it would be "greater" than the education such girl would get in a school for children with exceptionally high IQs. It would be greater because it would help her better.
Jesus Himself, when talking about what the Other Comforter would reveal, indicated that such Comforter would lead His followers to "all truth".
Jesus then recognized that his revelation had been partial. This does not mean it was imperfect. It was perfect for that time and needs.
Jesus Himself also predicted that his followers would work wonders even greater than the wonders he worked (John 14:12)
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi Johann
We all spiritualize the content of the Bible. We all take much of it symbolically or allegorically.
We certainly differ on which verses or terms to take symbolically or allegorically.
As a general rule, anything that contradicts reason if taken literally, should be taken symbolically or allegorically.
But that rule requires from us to be brave and honest.
For example, God cannot be a man. God cannot have two or three or more minds, and still be considered "personal". That requires reason.
As you admit, that verse highlights Jesus humanity.
The question is why Paul did that, instead of highlighting a dual nature of Christ as God-man? This was Paul's golden chance to explain that Christ could be a mediator precisely because of his dual nature! Why didn't he do it?
Please notice: It is not only that Paul didn't seize the opportunity to teach that Christ was a God-man. Paul dared to call Christ, in this incredible opportunity, "man". Why?
That's not true, my friend. Moses was an effective intercessor and did not need to be God.
The role of intercessor DOES NOT require to be God. Priests were not gods. Please provide any biblical evidence that such nature is required.
Intercession requires at least two minds, two persons. God cannot ask Himself nor mediate before Himself.
Otherwise it is not intercession. Do you agree with me?
You cannot ask the President of Russia to intercede before the President of Russia. You necessarily need a different person, who is NOT the President of Russia to intercede before him.
Actually, Hebrews 7:24-25 recognizes that Jesus is the mediator before God, and not God: it says we can come to God THROUGH Jesus. Please read the text again.
This is exactly why the analogy of High Priest can be used. If the High Priest were God, the High Priest wouldn't have to mediate or intercede before anyone.
Jesus's ability to mediate and intercede is rooted in the fact that He is NOT God. Otherwise, intercession would not be necessary.
Jesus would just receive our prayers for forgiveness, then forgive us, and that's all. No need to present our case to the Father. Which authority would have the Father that Jesus would not have?
If Jesus is a mediator, is exactly because He is NOT God.
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Johann
Well-known member
Before I enter into dialogue @Pancho Frijoles-is this correct?
The Bahá'í Faith does not accept the traditional Christian doctrine of the crucifixion of Jesus in the way it is commonly understood, particularly the idea that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for humanity’s sins.
The Bahá'í teachings reinterpret key aspects of the crucifixion and resurrection. According to Bahá'í belief, Jesus' crucifixion was not a literal event leading to His physical death; instead, it is understood in a more symbolic and spiritual sense.
Key Bahá'í Teachings on the Crucifixion:
Jesus' Crucifixion as a Spiritual Event: In Bahá'í theology, Jesus’ crucifixion is seen as symbolic of His suffering and the rejection He faced for His divine message. Bahá'ís do not believe that Jesus physically died on the cross. Instead, they interpret His crucifixion as a manifestation of His martyrdom and His suffering in the fulfillment of God’s plan, rather than a literal death.
"The Messiah... He who is crucified, who is the Lamb of God, and He who is promised to come again..."
The Bahá’í Faith and Christian Symbolism, a teaching by Shoghi Effendi
Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith, emphasized that the symbolism of the crucifixion does not involve a literal death but reflects the martyrdom of Christ, in line with the persecution that prophets often endure.
The Crucifixion Was Not the Death of Jesus: The Bahá'í perspective is that Jesus did not physically die on the cross. Instead, He is believed to have been temporarily taken from His followers’ view. According to Bahá'í teaching, God protected Him from death at the hands of the Romans, and He was not crucified in the conventional sense.
"He was not crucified, neither was He killed, but it appeared so unto them."
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán (The Book of Certitude)
This quote explicitly rejects the idea that Jesus was crucified in the literal sense, echoing the Quranic perspective expressed in Surah An-Nisa (4:157): "But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them."
The Role of Jesus in the Bahá'í Faith: Jesus is recognized as a Manifestation of God (like other prophets, such as Muhammad, Moses, and Bahá'u'lláh) in the Bahá'í Faith, whose mission was to reveal God’s will.
However, His physical death on the cross is not viewed as essential to the redemption of humanity, as in Christian doctrine. Instead, His teachings continue to hold spiritual significance, but the concept of salvation in Bahá'í belief is not based on His death or resurrection.
Jesus' Death in the Bahá'í Understanding of the Resurrection: For Bahá'ís, the resurrection of Jesus is also understood in a non-literal way.
Rather than Jesus’ body physically rising from the dead, the resurrection is interpreted as the spiritual renewal and the continuation of His message. I
n this view, His death symbolizes the end of an old way of understanding spiritual matters and the beginning of a new era with the coming of new revelations from God.
"The resurrection of Jesus... was not a physical rising, but a spiritual and moral revival... the return of Jesus is symbolic of the return of the inner spiritual power of the Christ..."
The Promised One of All Religions, Shoghi Effendi
In this sense, Jesus' resurrection, from a Bahá'í perspective, is an allegorical event signifying the ongoing spiritual work and influence of His teachings in the world.
Summary of Key Points:
Bahá'ís do not accept the crucifixion of Jesus in the traditional Christian sense.
They believe that Jesus did not die on the cross, but that His crucifixion was a spiritual event representing His suffering and martyrdom for His message.
The Bahá'í perspective aligns with Islamic and certain Gnostic interpretations of the crucifixion, where Jesus’ death was an illusion or appearance rather than a literal, physical death.
The resurrection of Jesus in Bahá'í belief is seen as a spiritual resurrection, symbolizing the continuing influence of His teachings, rather than a literal physical resurrection.
Thus, the Bahá'í Faith offers a distinctive view of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus that diverges significantly from traditional Christian beliefs.
Just to let you know I am reading this site.
J.
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Johann
Well-known member
And this includes the literal crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord Christ Jesus-correct? @Pancho Frijoles
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I know Christ, Johann.
I have this privilege and honor.
This is why I know what Christ demanded from people in order to follow Him and be saved.
Christ never ever demanded from anyone to assent to any doctrine about his deity, or preexistence, or virginal birth, or blood atonement, or physical resurrection, in order to be forgiven, or healed, or saved. He set the example.
He forgave and healed people on the basis of their need and faith that they could be healed/saved.
You are quoting verses in order to show that doctrine X, Y or Z is true.
But even if doctrines X, Y or Z are true, that does not mean that God demands from us to believe in them in order to forgive us.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Literal crucifixion violates no reasoning.
On the contrary, we know that Romans crucified people. It was a common way of torture and execution.
Physical resurrection, on the other hand, violates reasoning in multiple ways... at least in the way it is presented in the gospels.
So I rather choose to look for a non-literal interpretation of those passages.
In this thread, though, we are not considering the doctrine of physical resurrection, but Jesus deity.
God cannot be a man.
God cannot be personal and at the same time have several minds and wills.
These things violate reasoning.
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