The misuse and abuse of John 17:3 by Unitarians to promote Unitarianism.

[Studyman]

I think it’s better to move on, @Studyman. You insinuated that I’m a wolf in sheep's clothing and now you suggest I’m “upset” with @Pancho Frijoles.

Can you give me the gospel of salvation in a condensed manner? And how many ways lead to Rome? How many lead to Christ Jesus?

Put your thinking cap on and don’t dance around in circles.

J.

It is difficult to have any kind of honest discussion with you as you won't answer my question, or even address most of my points or the Scriptures that lead to my conclusion. It seems you are simply here to promote your religion, not discuss Scriptures. Even now you say out of one side of your mouth, "I think it’s better to move on", and then with the other side of your mouth, "Can you give me the gospel of salvation in a condensed manner"

So which is it?

Are you moving on? Or asking of me to define the Gospel of Christ for you?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I think it’s better to move on, @Studyman. You insinuated that I’m a wolf in sheep's clothing and now you suggest I’m “upset” with @Pancho Frijoles.

I don’t think you are upset with me, Johann, and that’s why I would like to hold a serious, formal debate with you in a spirit of fraternal love.

Can you give me the gospel of salvation in a condensed manner? And how many ways lead to Rome? How many lead to Christ Jesus?

If you allow me to share my convictions, I can give you the gospel of salvation in a condensed manner.
Repent and rejoice: the Kingdom of God has come. Fear God, who is The Creator, and give Him glory.

Direct support: Mark 1:14,15 and Rev 14:6:7

 

[Studyman]

Shammai? Hillel? What's their claim to fame?

How would you categorize your "club"? Don't just tell me you follow the Bible. Everyone says that. Briefly, how would you describe your beliefs?

Johann used them in a rebuke directed towards me. You can Google them to learn about them as they are not mentioned in Scripture.

In this world God placed me in there exists thousands of religious sects and businesses, many of which call the Jesus of the Bible their Lord. Most all of them are founded on the teaching or philosophies of men like Augustine, or the Council of Nicea, or later on religious philosophers like Calvin, Huss, Wesley, Russell, Smith, Miller etc. The list goes on and on. These religious franchises in some cases, and sects all compete with each other for contributing members to grow their religious club or business. Some of these businesses have become enormously huge corporations creating massive wealth prophesying and doing great works “In Christs Name”. Jesus talks about them in Matthew 6 and 7 and again in Revelation 18.

I have escaped these religious sects, by the Grace of God and their differing and ever changing doctrines and Philosophies and am striving to enter the Path Jesus and the Faithful members of the Church of God, AKA the Body of Christ walked in. Members like Abel, Abraham, Moses, Caleb, David, Zacharias, Simeon, Cornelius, Matthew Paul just at to name a few. In this club, God provides the teachers, His Son is the High Priest who provides Himself as my sin offering, and His Temple is in our mind. This is the condensed version as I am typing on my phone, but wanted to show you respect and common decency by answering your question.

It’s late and I’m taking my grandson deer hunting in the morning so I must get some sleep. I’ll talk with you later.

Have a good night.

 

[Johann]

I strongly disagree. Your claim is unsuppported biblically and logically.
Furthermore, your claim may lead to immoral, unethical conclusions you may not be aware of.

Disagree-strongly.

The deity of Christ Jesus strikes at the very heart of the gospel because the message of salvation hinges upon who He is and what He accomplished. If Jesus were merely a created being or a mere man, He could not fulfill the demands of God's perfect justice nor provide an infinite sacrifice for sin. Only the eternal Son of God, fully divine and fully human, could bridge the gap between sinful humanity and a holy God.

The Atonement Requires a Divine Savior: For the gospel to be effective, the atonement must provide infinite value, capable of covering the sins of all who believe. Hebrews 9:12-14 emphasizes that Christ offered Himself without blemish, through the eternal Spirit, securing eternal redemption. A created being's death could not suffice to pay the penalty for sin on such a scale; only God in the flesh could provide such a sacrifice.

Revealing God to Humanity: The gospel proclaims reconciliation with God, and Jesus’ deity is essential to that message. John 1:18 declares that the only begotten Son, who is God Himself, has made the Father known. Without His divine nature, Christ could not fully reveal the character, will, and heart of God to humanity.

Christ as Mediator: A mediator must equally represent both parties. Jesus, as fully God and fully man, uniquely fulfills this role (1 Timothy 2:5). His deity enables Him to represent God perfectly, while His humanity allows Him to identify with and represent humankind.

Victory Over Death: The resurrection is central to the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:17), and it demonstrates Jesus' power over sin and death, proving His divine nature (Romans 1:4). If Christ were not God, He could not conquer death or grant eternal life to believers (John 11:25).

Faith Hinges on His Divine Identity: The gospel calls for faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior (Romans 10:9-10). If He is not God, then faith in Him would be misplaced. Jesus Himself affirmed His divine identity in passages like John 8:58, and the apostles consistently preached His deity as integral to the gospel.

In sum, the gospel is not merely a message about moral improvement or spiritual insight; it is the proclamation of God stepping into history in the person of Jesus Christ to redeem sinners. To deny His deity is to undermine the gospel's foundation and its saving power.

Passages where Jesus is unquestionably called God

Heb 1:8 Father addresses son as God

Jn 1:1 The word was God

Phil 2:6-8 Jesus existed in the form of God

Jn 20:28 'My Lord and My God

Isa 7:14 "A Child Will Be Born And His Name Is Called": "Emanuel: God with us"

Isa 9:6 "A Child Will Be Born And His Name Is Called": "Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace"

B. Passages that speak of Christ's deity but because of the wording in the Greek, it can be argued that the Father is being addressed as God, not Jesus.

Titus 2:13-14 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."

1 Timothy 1:16,17 "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."

1 Timothy 6:14-16 "that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time-He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord"

THERE IS ONLY ONE PATH TO SALVATION
ACCORDING TO JESUS...Not Muhammad, or any "messenger"
He said the way to life was difficult and narrow, found by few - Mt 7:13-14
He taught that unless we believe in Him, we will die in our sins - Jn 8:24
He claimed to be the only way to the Father - Jn 14:6
-- There is only one path to salvation, and that is through Jesus!
ACCORDING TO HIS APOSTLES...
Peter said salvation is found only in Jesus' name - Ac 4:12
John said whoever denies the Son does not have the Father - 1Jn 2:23
Paul said those who do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ will experience vengeance when Jesus comes again - 2Th 1:7-8
-- There is only one path to salvation, and that is through Jesus!
[Both Jesus and His apostles were very clear: the path to salvation must go through Jesus Christ! If not, consider for a moment the implication of what many people believe...]

THERE ARE MANY PATHS TO SALVATION
IF SO, CONSIDER WHO LIED...
Jesus lied, when He said no man comes to the Father but through Him - Jn 14:6
His apostles lied, when they taught salvation comes only through Jesus - Ac 4:12
-- If there are many paths to salvation, then Jesus and His apostles were liars!
IF SO, CONSIDER WHO SUFFERED AND DIED IN VAIN...
Jesus' suffering and death on the cross was not necessary
Why die for our sins, if there are other ways to salvation?
Why suffer an excruciating death on the cross, if it was not necessary?
His apostles' suffering and deaths were not necessary
Why did apostles like Paul put up with his hardships? - cf. 2Co 11:23-29
Why did the apostles endure martyrdom if it was not necessary?
Why not simply live out their lives as fishermen, tentmakers, etc.?
-- If there are many paths to salvation, then Jesus and His apostles died in vain!
[If we profess to be Christians, then we must believe that there is only one path to salvation, and that is through Jesus! Let's review the gospel plan of salvation, the path to salvation...]

THE PATH TO SALVATION
WE MUST HEAR THE GOOD NEWS...
For faith comes by hearing the Word of God - Ro 10:17
For this reason Jesus sent His apostles and preachers - Ac 10:42-43
-- Have you heard the gospel of Jesus Christ?
WE MUST BELIEVE (TRUST) IN JESUS...
As the Son of God whom the Father sent because He loved us - Jn 3:16
As the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) offered by God for sins - 1Jn 4:9-10
Whose blood provides redemption, the forgiveness of sins - Ep 1:7
-- Do you trust in Jesus and His sacrificial death for your salvation?
WE MUST REPENT OF OUR SINS...
For Jesus is coming to judge the world - Ac 17:30-31
For we must turn from darkness to light, from the power of Satan to God - Ac 26:18
Otherwise, we will perish! - Lk 13:3
-- Have you made the decision to turn from your sins to serve the living God?
WE MUST CONFESS JESUS AS OUR LORD...
If we want Jesus to confess us before His Father in heaven - Mt 10:32-33
If we want to receive the salvation that Jesus offers - Ro 10:9-10
-- Have you acknowledged that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God?
WE MUST BE BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST...
To be saved - Mk 16:15-16
To receive the remission of sins and gift of the Holy Spirit - Ac 2:38
To be raised with Christ from death to newness of life - Ro 6:3-7
-- Have you been baptized into Christ for the remission of your sins?
WE MUST REMAIN FAITHFUL TO JESUS...
To learn from Him as His disciples - Mt 28:19-20
To imitate Him as our Mentor - Lk 6:40
To remain faithful to Him even to the point of death - Re 2:10
-- Have you made Jesus your Teacher and Mentor, as well as your Savior?
CONCLUSION
Believing there are many paths to salvation is...
A comforting doctrine to hold
Viewed by many as tolerant and loving
But if one really believes in Jesus, they must abide in His teaching (cf. Jn 8:30-32)...
That few will be saved
That Jesus is the only way to the Father
That we must obey His gospel plan of salvation
That we must follow Him as our Teacher and Mentor the rest of our life

The Deity of Jesus and Him crucified [literally] and Him resurrected [literally] @Pancho Frijoles

J.

 

[Johann]

If you allow me to share my convictions, I can give you the gospel of salvation in a condensed manner.
Repent and rejoice: the Kingdom of God has come. Fear God, who is The Creator, and give Him glory.

Direct support: Mark 1:14,15 and Rev 14:6:7

"THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST"--not via successive "messengers"

In Mk 16:15-16, Jesus makes reference to "the gospel"...
Commanding His disciples to preach it to every creature
Offering salvation to all who believe and are baptized

In Ro 1:16-17, Paul makes reference to "the gospel"...
How he was not ashamed of it
How it is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe

What is this "gospel"...?
That Jesus wanted everyone to hear?
That is God's power to save mankind?
The word "gospel" (Gr., euaggelion) means "good news"...
It pertains to the good news of salvation through Christ
It involves the proclamation of God's grace offered through Jesus
It requires a response involving obedience - cf. 1Pe 4:17; 2 Th 1:7-8
A simple way to summarize the content of the "gospel" is that it contains...
Facts to believe
Commands to obey
Promises to receive


FACTS TO BELIEVE
CHRIST WAS CRUCIFIED FOR OUR SINS...
Fundamental to the gospel Paul preached - 1Co 15:1-3
As foretold by the Old Testament scriptures - Isa 53:4-6

Why did Jesus die for our sins?
Because we are all sinners! - Ro 3:23
Because the wages of sin is death! - Ro 6:23
-- In love God offers His Son as a "propitiation" (sacrifice) for our sins! - 1Jn 4:9-10

CHRIST WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD...
Also fundamental to the gospel Paul preached - 1Co 15:4
As proclaimed by Peter in the first gospel sermon - Ac 2:22-32
As seen by many eyewitnesses - 1Co 15:5-8
-- Raising Jesus verifies the justification offered on the cross! - Ro 4:25

CHRIST IS EXALTED AS KING AND SAVIOR...
He is now both Lord and Christ - Ac 2:33-36
He is head over all things - Ep 1:20-23
All authorities and powers are now subject to Him - 1Pe 3:22
-- God has made Jesus ruler over the kings of the earth! - Re 1:5

CHRIST IS COMING AGAIN...
As promised when He ascended to heaven - Ac 1:9-11
Coming to offer both rest and tribulation - 2Th 1:7-10
Rest to those who responded to the call of the gospel - 2 Th 2:13-14
Tribulation to those who obeyed not the gospel - 2Th 1:8-9
-- His coming will cause many to mourn, while others rejoice - Re 1:7; 22:20
[Whether we are prepared for His coming depends upon our obedience to the gospel (cf. 2Th 1:8). This implies that "The Gospel Of Christ" also contains...]

COMMANDS TO OBEY
BELIEVE THE GOSPEL CONCERNING JESUS CHRIST...
We must believe the gospel, or we are lost! - Mk 16:16
The gospel is God's power for salvation to those who believe - Ro 1:16
E.g., we must believe that God raised Him from the dead - Ro 10:9-10
-- For those willing to believe, eternal life can be theirs! - Jn 3:16; 20:30-31

CONFESS YOUR FAITH IN JESUS...
Confessing with our mouth the Lord Jesus leads to salvation - Ro 10:9-10
The Ethiopian eunuch provides an example of such a confession - Ac 8:37
-- Jesus will confess us before God if we confess Him before others! - Mt 10:32-33

REPENT OF YOUR SINS...
Jesus wanted repentance preached in His name to all nations - Lk 24:46-47
Peter therefore preached the need to repent to the Jews - Ac 2:37-38; 3:19
Paul likewise preached the need to repent to the Gentiles - Ac 17:30-31
-- Unless we repent, we will perish in our sins! - Lk 13:3

BE BAPTIZED FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS...
Jesus expected people to be baptized in response to His gospel - Mk 16:15-16
Peter proclaimed baptism for the remission of sins to those who believed - Ac 2:37-38
Paul related the place baptism had in his salvation from sin - Ac 22:16
-- When we submit to baptism, God does His work in saving us! - Co 2:11-13

BE FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH...
Faithfulness is necessary if we desire to receive the crown of life - Re 2:10
There is a real danger in losing our faith - He 3:12-14
-- Rest assured, our faithful labors will not be in vain! - 1Co 15:58
[When one obeys the commands of the gospel, they receive wonderful blessings. These blessings are offered in the gospel as...]

PROMISES TO RECEIVE
THE REMISSION OF SINS...
We are promised the remission of sins! - Ac 2:38
Our sins are "blotted out", "washed away" - Ac 3:19; 22:16
Made possible by the precious blood of Christ - Ep 1:7
-- An ongoing blessing whenever we confess our sins! - 1Jn 1:9

THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT...
Spoken of by Christ during His ministry - Jn 7:37-39
Promised to those who repent and are baptized - Ac 2:38-39; 5:32
One aspect of this gift relates to His indwelling
The Spirit indwells the Christ - 1Co 6:19; Ro 8:9-11
The Spirit enables us to mortify the flesh - Ro 8:12-13
The Spirit is God's instrumental agent to strengthen the Christ - Ep 3:16
The Spirit can produce wonderful fruit in our life - Ga 5:22-23
-- Because we are His children, God has given us this wonderful Gift! - Ga 4:6

THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE...
In the sense of our eternal reward
Received at the end of a life bearing the fruit of holiness - Ro 6:22-23
Received in the age to come - Mk 10:29-30
Received at the time of judgment - Mt 25:46
In the sense of our abundant life now
Offered by Jesus - Jn 10:10
A quality of life made possible by our relationship with God - Jn 17:2-3
A life in Christ enjoyed even now - 1Jn 5:11-13
-- Thus godly living has promise both in this life, and that which is come! - 1Ti 4:8

CONCLUSION
Can we understand why "The Gospel Of Christ" is "good news"...?
The "facts to believe" contains the message of God's love and grace
The "commands to obey" are not difficult works, done to earn salvation, but simple acts of faith whereby we receive God's grace - cf. 1Jn 5:3
The "promises to receive" help us deal with the real problem of sin in our lives
What have you done with "The Gospel of Christ"...?
You have now heard it, if not before
You know as much as those who heard it on the day of Pentecost, if not even more
Together with the apostle Peter, we implore you...

"...Be saved from this perverse generation." (Ac 2:40)

Do you know Him @Pancho Frijoles?

J.

 

[Johann]

It is difficult to have any kind of honest discussion with you as you won't answer my question, or even address most of my points or the Scriptures that lead to my conclusion. It seems you are simply here to promote your religion, not discuss Scriptures. Even now you say out of one side of your mouth, "I think it’s better to move on", and then with the other side of your mouth, "Can you give me the gospel of salvation in a condensed manner"

So which is it?

Are you moving on? Or asking of me to define the Gospel of Christ for you?

Move on @Studyman.

J.

 

[Johann]

I strongly disagree. Your claim is unsuppported biblically and logically.
Furthermore, your claim may lead to immoral, unethical conclusions you may not be aware of.

I invite you to debate respectfully with me in a separate thread, preferably with a moderator.
The thesis I will defend is that doctrine of the deity of Jesus is NOT a salvific issue because it is impossible to separate salvation from forgiveness and life transformation, and believing in the deity of Jesus has never been a requirement from God to extend his mercy or change a life.

Please let me know if you are willing to hold this debate.

Here are the reasons I won't debate you-and this on the core doctrines as recorded in Scripture.

Try typing "the resurrection of Jesus" in the search string--

The Bahá’í Faith

The Official Website of the Worldwide Bahá’í Community

www.bahai.org

the Baha'i views on the bodily resurrection and crucifixion of Jesus differ significantly from mainstream Christian teachings. These differences stem from the Baha'i interpretation of biblical events in a symbolic or spiritual manner rather than adhering to the literal understanding held by most Christian traditions.

Baha'i Views on the Crucifixion
Acknowledgment of the Crucifixion: The Baha'i faith recognizes that Jesus was crucified, but the event is often understood more symbolically.

Baha'is emphasize the spiritual significance of the crucifixion rather than viewing it as a literal atonement for humanity's sins.

No Substitutionary Atonement: Unlike Christian theology, particularly in Protestantism, which holds that Jesus' death served as a substitutionary atonement for sin, Baha'is do not view His crucifixion as having that salvific role. Instead, they see it as a demonstration of self-sacrifice and the triumph of the spirit over material persecution.

Baha'i Views on the Resurrection

Non-Literal Interpretation: The Baha'i faith generally interprets the resurrection of Jesus symbolically or spiritually, not as a physical, bodily resurrection.

They view the accounts of the resurrection as metaphorical, representing the continued influence and teachings of Jesus in the lives of His disciples rather than His literal rising from the dead.

Focus on Spiritual Renewal: The Baha'i writings suggest that the resurrection signifies the spiritual awakening and empowerment of Jesus' followers after His death. It symbolizes the perpetuation of His message rather than a historical event involving the reanimation of His physical body.

Christian Views on the Crucifixion and Resurrection
Crucifixion as Atonement: Christianity teaches that Jesus' crucifixion was a historical event and central to salvation. It is seen as the ultimate sacrifice to atone for humanity's sins, fulfilling the requirements of God's justice while demonstrating His love (Romans 5:8, 1 Peter 3:18).

Bodily Resurrection: Christians affirm the bodily resurrection of Jesus as a foundational doctrine of the faith (1 Corinthians 15:14-17). The resurrection is viewed as proof of Jesus' divinity, the defeat of sin and death, and the assurance of eternal life for believers (Romans 6:9-10, John 11:25-26).

Key Differences
Nature of the Events: Christians hold to the literal, physical crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, while Baha'is emphasize their spiritual or symbolic meanings.

Theological Implications: For Christians, the crucifixion and resurrection are central to salvation, directly addressing sin and death. For Baha'is, the focus is more on the spiritual principles of Jesus' life and teachings rather than on the salvific efficacy of these events.

View of Jesus: Christians believe Jesus is fully divine and the unique Son of God. The Baha'i faith regards Him as one of many manifestations of God, which also influences their interpretation of these events.

In summary, the Baha'i interpretation differs fundamentally from orthodox Christian doctrine, which treats the crucifixion and resurrection as literal, historical, and indispensable to the gospel message. These divergent views reflect broader theological differences between the two faiths.
******************************************************************************************************************************

Search – Authoritative Writings and Guidance | Bahá’í Reference Library

www.bahai.org

QUESTION: WHAT IS the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days?

2Answer: The resurrection of the Manifestations of God is not of the body. All that pertains to Them—all Their states and conditions, all that They do, found, teach, interpret, illustrate, and ordain—is of a mystical and spiritual character and does not belong to the realm of materiality.

3Such is the case of Christ’s coming from heaven. It has been explicitly stated in numerous passages of the Gospel that the Son of man came down from heaven, or is in heaven, or will go up to heaven. Thus in John 6:38 it is said: “For I came down from heaven”, and in John 6:42 it is recorded: “And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”, and in John 3:13 it is stated: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

4Consider how it is said that the Son of man is in heaven, even though at that time Christ was dwelling upon the earth. Consider likewise that it explicitly says that Christ came from heaven, although He came from the womb of Mary and His body was born of her. It is therefore clear that the assertion that the Son of man came down from heaven has a mystical rather than a literal meaning, and is a spiritual rather than a material event. The meaning is that though in appearance Christ was born of the womb of Mary, yet in reality He came from heaven, the seat of the Sun of Truth that shines in the divine realm of the supernal Kingdom. And since it is established that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the divine Kingdom, His disappearance into the earth for three days must also have a mystical rather than a literal meaning. In the same manner, His resurrection from the bosom of the earth is a mystical matter and expresses a spiritual rather than a material condition. And His ascension to heaven, likewise, is spiritual and not material in nature.

5Aside from this, it has been established by science that the material heaven is a limitless space, void and empty, wherein countless stars and planets move.

6We explain, therefore, the meaning of Christ’s resurrection in the following way: After the martyrdom of Christ, the Apostles were perplexed and dismayed. The reality of Christ, which consists in His teachings, His bounties, His perfections, and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and had no outward appearance or manifestation—indeed, it was as though it were entirely lost. For those who truly believed were few in number, and even those few were perplexed and dismayed. The Cause of Christ was thus as a lifeless body. After three days the Apostles became firm and steadfast, arose to aid the Cause of Christ, resolved to promote the divine teachings and practise their Lord’s admonitions, and endeavoured to serve Him. Then did the reality of Christ become resplendent, His grace shine forth, His religion find new life, and His teachings and admonitions become manifest and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ, which was like unto a lifeless body, was quickened to life and surrounded by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

7Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection. But as the clergy did not grasp the meaning of the Gospels and did not comprehend this mystery, it was claimed that religion was opposed to science and science was incompatible with religion, for among other things the ascension of Christ in a physical body to the material heavens is contrary to the mathematical sciences. But when the truth of this matter is clarified and this symbol is explained, it is in no way contradicted by science but rather affirmed by both science and reason.

The above is incorrect.

Thanks.

J.