The misuse and abuse of John 17:3 by Unitarians to promote Unitarianism.

[Johann]

Speaking of Sam, what do you think of his promotion of Catholicism? I'm not Catholic nor will I ever become Catholic but I find no fault with any of his Catholic views that he promotes on the internet.

It was disappointing to learn that he became a Catholic, but aside from that, he is a solid apologist.

J.

 

[synergy]

It was disappointing to learn that he became a Catholic, but aside from that, he is a solid apologist.

J.

Just for my information (not for debating), can you think of any of his Catholic topics that you do not agree with?

 

[Johann]

Just for my information (not for debating), can you think of any of his Catholic topics that you do not agree with?

I can think of many, but that’s a discussion for another thread and topic, @synergy.

We don't pray to the "sinless" Mary or to saints. He relied too heavily on the Early Church Fathers to shape his theology, rather than on what the Bible actually says.

J.

 

[synergy]

I can think of many, but that’s a discussion for another thread and topic, @synergy.

We don't pray to the "sinless" Mary or to saints. He relied too heavily on the Early Church Fathers to shape his theology, rather than on what the Bible actually says.

J.

Thanks for that information. I just wanted to know where you stand.

 

[Studyman]

Incorrect-what a shame millions of people do NOT pray or honor Jesus Christ for WHO He is, worthy of our highest eulogy!

The "Christians" Jesus Spoke of in Matt. 7:22 truly honored Jesus with their mouth, doing all manner of "good works" and teaching in His Name. But the Jesus "of the bible" said HE didn't even know them because of their disobedience to God. And those zealous religious men who honor God in prayer and singing in their manmade shrines of worship and on the streets, Jesus called them Hypocrites who create religious activities to be seen and praised of men. Perhaps there is more to a "True Worshippers" life than honoring Christ with their lips. Maybe the best way to Honor the Jesus "of the Bible" is to Pray as HE prayed, to His God that HE prayed to, in the manner that HE instructs to Pray. Perhaps denying ourselves and becoming "Doers" of His sayings and not hearers only, IS the Highest Eulogy HE is worthy of.

As it is written; 1 John 2: 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself "also so to walk", even as he walked.

I hope my friend Pancho will come to see this world's religious sects and businesses as the real danger to God's People and come to trust the Jesus "of the bible" alone for guidance. And I have no doubt that if he is seeking the God of Abraham from the heart, as He instructs, God will give him to Jesus, to show him the way.

But I must say I marvel at his understanding of Scriptures that dwarfs the knowledge of "Many" on this very forum, who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ. And even a nobody like me, has seen the truth in a lot of his understanding. It reminds me of Anna in Luke 2, who was just a poor widow woman whose knowledge of God and His salvation far surpassed the knowledge of Gamaliel the great teacher of babes, and the Chief Priests and Scribes of her time, who had exalted themselves as spokesmen for God. She didn't have to break down every word of Scripture into Greek or Hebrew, she just listened to Moses being read in her own language, an believed what Moses said, over what this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" said. As Jesus also told us. " For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me".

Even a child can understand the Simplicity of Christ if they would believe His Words, in my view.

 

[Johann]

But I must say I marvel at his understanding of Scriptures that dwarfs the knowledge of "Many" on this very forum, who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ. And even a nobody like me, has seen the truth in a lot of his understanding. It reminds me of Anna in Luke 2, who was just a poor widow woman whose knowledge of God and His salvation far surpassed the knowledge of Gamaliel the great teacher of babes, and the Chief Priests and Scribes of her time, who had exalted themselves as spokesmen for God. She didn't have to break down every word of Scripture into Greek or Hebrew, she just listened to Moses being read in her own language, an believed what Moses said, over what this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" said. As Jesus also told us. " For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me".

His grasp of various belief systems is evident, but he rarely quotes Scripture, @Studyman. Even if his philosophy surpasses many, it remains human philosophy that denies the power of the Scriptures and the Yeshua revealed in them.

As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 1:19-20, “For it is written, ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.’ Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?”

His approach errs in more ways than one by leaning on human reasoning rather than divine truth.

And an "add on" Jesus Christ.

The "Christians" Jesus Spoke of in Matt. 7:22 truly honored Jesus with their mouth, doing all manner of "good works" and teaching in His Name. But the Jesus "of the bible" said HE didn't even know them because of their disobedience to God. And those zealous religious men who honor God in prayer and singing in their manmade shrines of worship and on the streets, Jesus called them Hypocrites who create religious activities to be seen and praised of men. Perhaps there is more to a "True Worshippers" life than honoring Christ with their lips. Maybe the best way to Honor the Jesus "of the Bible" is to Pray as HE prayed, to His God that HE prayed to, in the manner that HE instructs to Pray. Perhaps denying ourselves and becoming "Doers" of His sayings and not hearers only, IS the Highest Eulogy HE is worthy of.

Only those who believe in Christ Jesus and are sealed with the Holy Spirit truly belong to Him and the Father.

As Ephesians 1:13-14 says, "In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." Good works alone will not save you—don’t deceive yourself, as Ephesians 2:8-9 reminds us: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

I hope my friend Pancho will come to see this world's religious sects and businesses as the real danger to God's People and come to trust the Jesus "of the bible" alone for guidance. And I have no doubt that if he is seeking the God of Abraham from the heart, as He instructs, God will give him to Jesus, to show him the way.

Yes, the real question is, what are you and he truly buying or selling? Especially here on this Apologetics Forum, where you've placed @Pancho Frijoles on the same level as Shammai and Hillel?

J.

 

[Johann]

But I must say I marvel at his understanding of Scriptures that dwarfs the knowledge of "Many" on this very forum, who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ. And even a nobody like me, has seen the truth in a lot of his understanding. It reminds me of Anna in Luke 2, who was just a poor widow woman whose knowledge of God and His salvation far surpassed the knowledge of Gamaliel the great teacher of babes, and the Chief Priests and Scribes of her time, who had exalted themselves as spokesmen for God. She didn't have to break down every word of Scripture into Greek or Hebrew, she just listened to Moses being read in her own language, an believed what Moses said, over what this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" said. As Jesus also told us. " For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me".

If you lack a foundational understanding of Greek and Hebrew morphology and syntax, refrain from condemning others who diligently study God’s Word or insinuating that I am a "false apostle transforming myself into an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:13-14).

Study more, @Studyman, and remain faithful to the path God has called you to through His Spirit. As 2 Timothy 2:15 says, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."

Avoid hindering those who are not only beyond you in knowledge but also in their faithful deeds.

J.

 

[Studyman]

His grasp of various belief systems is evident, but he rarely quotes Scripture, @Studyman.

I have found your characterization of his posts an inaccurate description. To say he "rarely" quoted scripture is simply not true. In this thread alone, #51, #70, #72, #88 he quotes scripture and invites an honest discussion about them.

I don't agree with his adopted religious sect, but I also don't believe a man should call Jesus their Lord, but refuse to be a doer of His sayings, choosing instead to transgress God's Judgments and Commandments by their own manmade religious traditions and philosophies practiced "In His Name". I'm not sure which is worse, a man calling himself a "Christian" while rejecting God's Commandments and Judgments contrary to Jesus' Teaching. Or calling himself a Bali's while believing and walking in the Commandments and judgments of God that Jesus walked in.

As Jesus Himself said,

John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; "because I said", I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Even if his philosophy surpasses many, it remains human philosophy that denies the power of the Scriptures and the Yeshua revealed in them.

I don't see that HE denies the power of the Scriptures, seeing he quotes and believes what is written, same as you claim. I think you are upset with him, because he doesn't recognize or accept the religious philosophies "you" have adopted and are promoting, nor does he recognize your authority that you claim over him, to judge him. In the same way Civic doesn't recognize or accept the religious philosophies of Calvinism, and Calvinist don't recognize the religious sect Civic has adopted, or his authority to judge them that he is promoting.

For me, the Jesus "of the Bible" tells me who to be more concerned about being deceived by. And HE is clear about this in the scriptures. It is those who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ, who "Come in His Name" teaching that HE, Jesus, IS the Messiah, that I am to "Take heed" of. I believe Jesus should be the ONE who knows if anybody does. Pancho is none of these things, and doesn't claim to be any of these things.

But many do!

As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 1:19-20, “For it is written, ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.’ Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?”

You have completely ignored everything I wrote in my post, including the Scriptures I referenced therein. Why would you do that? Pancho doesn't do that. He is eager and willing to have a kind and respectful discussion about the Scriptures, and he is met with rudeness, insults, and seldom with honest answers to his question posed to those on this forum who claim to be the wisdom of the wise. How is this any different than poor Anna, a poor widow who would most assuredly be mocked by the Priests and scribes of her day for her understanding of God and His Salvation, proven superior to the Gamaliel's, Priests and scribes of that time.

Surely it isn't a sin to consider all these writing as truth.

His approach errs in more ways than one by leaning on human reasoning rather than divine truth.

Whose "Divine Truth"? The Popes? Wesley's"? Armenians? Kenneth Copeland? John Calvin? Russell? Shammai? Hillel? Baháʼu'lláh?

You believe your teachers are superior to Pancho's. So do Calvinists. So does Civic. And yet you all have adopted this world's religious sects and businesses as your own. Jesus told you who to pray to, and who to worship, and even how to pray and who to "Yield yourself" a servant to obey. And yet you reject His Own Teaching concerning all these things in order to preserve your own adopted religious philosophy.

So how are you more righteous that he? How are you wiser than he?

Why not believe and then live by (be doers) of "Every Word" of God as the Jesus "of the Bible" did and instructs to do? Why not believe ALL of Jesus' Words, including who to worship, and how to pray, and who to pray for, and how not to be a hypocrite?

And what if the religious masses I am surrounded by refuse to do so? Didn't the same thing happen to Caleb? Was his story not given to me for examples, for my own admonition?

And an "add on" Jesus Christ.

Duet 18: 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, "like unto me"; unto him ye shall hearken;

John 5: 46 For "had ye believed Moses", ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye "believe not his writings", "how shall ye believe" my words?

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

What is the difference between you and Pancho? You call Jesus "God" and Pancho calls Him "the Son of God".

Only those who believe in Christ Jesus and are sealed with the Holy Spirit truly belong to Him and the Father.

I have yet to meet even ONE self-professing Christian from literally hundreds of different religious sects and businesses that doesn't claim to be
"sealed with the Holy Spirit truly belong to Him and the Father.". I can walk into, on any Sunday morning, literally any one of thousands of manmade shrines of worship from any numbers of different religious sects and businesses who call Jesus Lord, Lord, and be guaranteed by the preacher therein, who has transformed himself into an Apostle of Christ, that I am "sealed with the Holy Spirit truly belong to Him and the Father." Right after they sing praises and pray to Jesus with their windows open and their bells ringing for all men to hear.

Is that the Church of God Jesus presides over? Or did HE tell me not to be like unto them?

Will you answer my questions?

As Ephesians 1:13-14 says, "In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory." Good works alone will not save you—don’t deceive yourself,

There is NO GOOD WORKS, without God. We can't even know what a good work is, without God. It makes zero sense to say, "good Works "Alone" cannot save you". It is a spiritual impossibility to have or do "Good Works" without God who is the sole creator and definer of them. As Paul also teaches the Ephesians.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his (God the Father's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto "good works", "which God" (Not Man) hath "before ordained" that we should walk in them.

Jesus said that we are "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". Why, to ignore them? Reject them? Or to "Walk in them"?

As it is also written.

1 John 2: 7 Little children, let no man "deceive you": he that doeth righteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.

Don't deceive yourself my friend. There are no Good Works that exist, apart from God. Jesus has cleared for us, and showed us the Way.

Therefore, 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked.

as Ephesians 2:8-9 reminds us: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

You omitted the most important part of Paul's teaching here, I addressed above.

Yes, the real question is, what are you and he truly buying or selling?

I am selling nothing. I am only promoting ALL that is written in the Holy Scriptures, as opposed to living by the popular religious philosophies and traditions promoted by all the "Other voices" in the garden God placed me in.

Especially here on this Apologetics Forum, where you've placed @Pancho Frijoles on the same level as Shammai and Hillel?

You have your human teachers, Pancho has his. I believe in the teaching of the Holy Scriptures as Paul also taught.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

As it is also written:

Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[Johann]

I have found your characterization of his posts an inaccurate description. To say he "rarely" quoted scripture is simply not true. In this thread alone, #51, #70, #72, #88 he quotes scripture and invites an honest discussion about them.

Whatever you say, the fact is, he rarely quotes Scripture.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his (God the Father's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto "good works", "which God" (Not Man) hath "before ordained" that we should walk in them.

Amen to this.

You omitted the most important part of Paul's teaching here, I addressed above.

I make it a point to quote in context, but sometimes others interject, either derailing the topic of the thread or simply pontificating.

Jesus said that we are "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". Why, to ignore them? Reject them? Or to "Walk in them"?

As it is also written.

1 John 2: 7 Little children, let no man "deceive you": he that doethrighteousness "is righteous", even as he is righteous.

Don't deceive yourself my friend. There are no Good Works that exist, apart from God. Jesus has cleared for us, and showed us the Way.

Therefore, 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so "to walk", even as he walked.

Are you implying that I'm just a fraud, a wolf in sheep's clothing, blowing my own shofar? How about Romans 6,
7 and 8?

I am selling nothing. I am only promoting ALL that is written in the Holy Scriptures, as opposed to living by the popular religious philosophies and traditions promoted by all the "Other voices" in the garden God placed me in.

Oh, so you’re proclaiming the whole counsel of YHVH, not just bits and pieces, correct?

Most here are promoting "strange fire" contrary to what stands written-correct?

You have your human teachers, Pancho has his. I believe in the teaching of the Holy Scriptures as Paul also taught.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they (ALL) should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

As it is also written:

Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

And forget about what really matters-Jesus Christ, Him crucified, Him resurrected-denied by all Unitarians who also reject the 13 Pauline epistles.

Jesus the Messiah is the only way, friend-there is no other way.

As Scripture says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).

Wolves and thieves may desperately try to come on this road, but it is impossible. The way is narrow and difficult, “For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matthew 7:14). The way is thlipsis-hemmed in, restricted, but it leads to eternal life.

While I agree with the Scriptures, I have a major issue with the exegesis of those Scriptures when they fail to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the only Savior and the authority of His Word.

Since you are such a big friend of @Pancho Frijoles, let me ask you-do you worship other strange "messengers," as some do?

The Bible warns, “For though we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8).

Gal 1:6 A Different Gospel
¶ I am astonished that you are turning away so quickly from the one who called you by the grace of Christ to a different gospel,
Gal 1:7 not that there is a different gospel , except there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!
Gal 1:9 As we said before, and now I say again, if anyone is proclaiming a gospel to you contrary to what you have received, let him be accursed!
Gal 1:10 For am I now making an appeal to people or to God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.

Let me know if you want to continue @Studyman.


J.

 

[Johann]

I don't see that HE denies the power of the Scriptures, seeing he quotes and believes what is written, same as you claim. I think you are upset with him, because he doesn't recognize or accept the religious philosophies "you" have adopted and are promoting, nor does he recognize your authority that you claim over him, to judge him. In the same way Civic doesn't recognize or accept the religious philosophies of Calvinism, and Calvinist don't recognize the religious sect Civic has adopted, or his authority to judge them that he is promoting.

I think it’s better to move on, @Studyman. You insinuated that I’m a wolf in sheep's clothing and now you suggest I’m “upset” with @Pancho Frijoles.

Can you give me the gospel of salvation in a condensed manner? And how many ways lead to Rome? How many lead to Christ Jesus?

Put your thinking cap on and don’t dance around in circles.

J.

 

[Studyman]

If you lack a foundational understanding of Greek and Hebrew morphology and syntax, refrain from condemning others who diligently study God’s Word or insinuating that I am a "false apostle transforming myself into an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:13-14).

I do not believe in the philosophies and traditions of the religious sect of the Hebrew Roots religion, or the religious sect of the Messianic Judaism. They both promote the philosophy that I cannot know God or His Son, or His Truth, unless I learn a foreign language and/or am trained by this world's religious scholars, such as Shammai or Hillel or any of literally hundreds of self-proclaimed teachers of God. This tradition of having to be trained by this world's religious scholars is a very powerful and widespread tradition that dates back to before Gamaliel. You are free to adopt what you want, I am just sharing 30 years of Study apart from this world's religious philosophers.

God has assured me that His Inspired Holy Scriptures are trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, "throughly furnished" unto all good works.

I understand that this belief doesn't do much to promote all the different religious franchises and sects which exist in this world God placed me in. But I do believe that God is able to preserve His relevant Truths, even in English Translations. And in studying in the privacy of my own home, I am free from the influence of the "Many" who Jesus warned will come in His Name.

I see that you don't like it when someone implies you might be promoting errors in your religious philosophy. But I can't help but notice you have no qualms about making that same judgment about others who have adopted views different than yours. I thought the story about Anna was especially relevant given the circumstances.

Study more, @Studyman, and remain faithful to the path God has called you to through His Spirit. As 2 Timothy 2:15 says, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth."

Thank you, that is good advice that I strive to live by as is all the Holy Scriptures.

Avoid hindering those who are not only beyond you in knowledge but also in their faithful deeds.

I'm not sure how I am hindering those who exalt themselves as superior to me in knowledge and faithful deeds. Especially given that most every preacher of Messianic Judaism, every Hebrew Roots preacher, every Baptist preacher, every Methodist preacher, every Jehovah Witness preacher, every Calvinist preacher, every Mormon preacher, every Catholic preacher I have ever discussed scriptures with over the last 30 years, claim to be beyond me in knowledge and also faithful deeds. And they made this judgment because I don't adopt their religious philosophies and traditions. But my refusal to join their religious club didn't "Hinder" them from promoting their religion, not in the least. So I'm not sure why you would imply that I'm "Hindering" those you judge as superior to me in knowledge and faithful deeds.

 

[synergy]

I do not believe in the philosophies and traditions of the religious sect of the Hebrew Roots religion, or the religious sect of the Messianic Judaism. They both promote the philosophy that I cannot know God or His Son, or His Truth, unless I learn a foreign language and/or am trained by this world's religious scholars, such as Shammai or Hillel or any of literally hundreds of self-proclaimed teachers of God. This tradition of having to be trained by this world's religious scholars is a very powerful and widespread tradition that dates back to before Gamaliel. You are free to adopt what you want, I am just sharing 30 years of Study apart from this world's religious philosophers.

God has assured me that His Inspired Holy Scriptures are trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, "throughly furnished" unto all good works.

I understand that this belief doesn't do much to promote all the different religious franchises and sects which exist in this world God placed me in. But I do believe that God is able to preserve His relevant Truths, even in English Translations. And in studying in the privacy of my own home, I am free from the influence of the "Many" who Jesus warned will come in His Name.

I see that you don't like it when someone implies you might be promoting errors in your religious philosophy. But I can't help but notice you have no qualms about making that same judgment about others who have adopted views different than yours. I thought the story about Anna was especially relevant given the circumstances.



Thank you, that is good advice that I strive to live by as is all the Holy Scriptures.



I'm not sure how I am hindering those who exalt themselves as superior to me in knowledge and faithful deeds. Especially given that most every preacher of Messianic Judaism, every Hebrew Roots preacher, every Baptist preacher, every Methodist preacher, every Jehovah Witness preacher, every Calvinist preacher, every Mormon preacher, every Catholic preacher I have ever discussed scriptures with over the last 30 years, claim to be beyond me in knowledge and also faithful deeds. And they made this judgment because I don't adopt their religious philosophies and traditions. But my refusal to join their religious club didn't "Hinder" them from promoting their religion, not in the least. So I'm not sure why you would imply that I'm "Hindering" those you judge as superior to me in knowledge and faithful deeds.

Shammai? Hillel? What's their claim to fame?

How would you categorize your "club"? Don't just tell me you follow the Bible. Everyone says that. Briefly, how would you describe your beliefs?

 

[Johann]

I do not believe in the philosophies and traditions of the religious sect of the Hebrew Roots religion, or the religious sect of the Messianic Judaism. They both promote the philosophy that I cannot know God or His Son, or His Truth, unless I learn a foreign language and/or am trained by this world's religious scholars, such as Shammai or Hillel or any of literally hundreds of self-proclaimed teachers of God. This tradition of having to be trained by this world's religious scholars is a very powerful and widespread tradition that dates back to before Gamaliel. You are free to adopt what you want, I am just sharing 30 years of Study apart from this world's religious philosophers.

You are "fishing" for information, not knowing from whence I come.

I see that you don't like it when someone implies you might be promoting errors in your religious philosophy. But I can't help but notice you have no qualms about making that same judgment about others who have adopted views different than yours. I thought the story about Anna was especially relevant given the circumstances.

Oh, I don’t for one minute claim that I have my theology completely figured out-neatly nipped and tucked. However, I do know this: I do not follow “religious philosophies,” as you suggest. Frankly, I’m surprised you have the nerve to want to continue this discussion.

I follow Christ Jesus and His imperatives:

“If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me” (Luke 9:23).

My eyes are fixed on Jesus Christ, “the author and perfecter of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2), as I run this race, “laying aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us” (Hebrews 12:1).

The gospel of Christ Jesus is not about Allah, Muhammad, or the founder of Baháʼí. The gospel is solely about the Messiah and His commands. Him crucified, Him resurrected!

“For there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Anything else is just that-religious ideologies and philosophies.

“See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ” (Colossians 2:8).

I'm not sure how I am hindering those who exalt themselves as superior to me in knowledge and faithful deeds. Especially given that most every preacher of Messianic Judaism, every Hebrew Roots preacher, every Baptist preacher, every Methodist preacher, every Jehovah Witness preacher, every Calvinist preacher, every Mormon preacher, every Catholic preacher I have ever discussed scriptures with over the last 30 years, claim to be beyond me in knowledge and also faithful deeds. And they made this judgment because I don't adopt their religious philosophies and traditions. But my refusal to join their religious club didn't "Hinder" them from promoting their religion, not in the least. So I'm not sure why you would imply that I'm "Hindering" those you judge as superior to me in knowledge and faithful deeds.

Again, these are just words-pontificating and fishing. Some will remain spiritual babes their whole lives, while others will grow in their sanctification as they walk in Christ Jesus, following the example of the Bereans, who were noble because they “examined the Scriptures every day to see if these things were so” (Acts 17:11, LEB).

As we dedicate ourselves to studying the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit illuminates them, opening the eyes of our hearts. “The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of his calling, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance among the saints” (Ephesians 1:18, LEB).

Through this process, we grow into spiritual maturity, “to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13, LEB), being sanctified by His Word. “Sanctify them in the truth-your word is truth” (John 17:17, LEB). This journey transforms us “until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man” (Ephesians 4:13, LEB), becoming more like Christ in every way.

As to knowledge-

Colossians 1:9-10
"...we have not ceased praying for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis) of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you may live worthily of the Lord to please him in every way, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis) of God."

ἐπίγνωσις: Refers to a full and thorough knowledge, emphasizing not just intellectual understanding but a personal and relational grasp of God's will and character.
This passage links knowledge to spiritual growth, pleasing God, and bearing fruit.

2. 2 Peter 1:2-3
"May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis) of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis) of him who called us to his own glory and excellence."

ἐπίγνωσις: Highlights that grace, peace, and godly living come through a fuller understanding of Christ.
This shows that a deep knowledge of Jesus leads to spiritual empowerment and godly living.

3. Philippians 1:9-10
"And this I pray: that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis) and all discernment, so that you may approve what is superior and may be pure and blameless for the day of Christ."

ἐπίγνωσις: Indicates a growing, relational understanding of God that leads to moral discernment and purity.
Paul prays for believers to grow in love through this knowledge, linking it to spiritual maturity.

4. Ephesians 1:17-18
"...that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis) of him, having the eyes of your heart enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of his calling, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance among the saints."

ἐπίγνωσις: Focuses on a Spirit-enabled understanding of God's nature, purposes, and promises.
Here, full knowledge is connected to wisdom, revelation, and spiritual enlightenment.

5. Colossians 2:2-3
"...that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis) of the mystery of God, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

ἐπίγνωσις: A deep understanding of the "mystery" of God, revealed in Christ.
This verse ties knowledge to spiritual assurance and access to divine wisdom.

6. Hebrews 10:26
"For if we keep on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge (ἐπίγνωσις, epignōsis) of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."

ἐπίγνωσις: Refers to a full understanding of the truth of the gospel.
The verse warns against rejecting the gospel after fully understanding it.

Key Points on ἐπίγνωσις:
It transcends mere intellectual understanding and implies an intimate, experiential knowledge of God.
It is a gift of the Holy Spirit, resulting in spiritual transformation and alignment with God’s will (see 1 Corinthians 2:10-12).
Growth in ἐπίγνωσις requires diligent study of Scripture and a life submitted to the Spirit.

Practical Application:
Believers are encouraged to pursue this full knowledge by immersing themselves in God’s Word (2 Timothy 2:15), seeking the Holy Spirit’s guidance (John 14:26), and growing in Christlike character (2 Peter 3:18).

Don’t try to “fish” for my religious philosophy, @Studyman-you’ve got the wrong person.

J.

 

[Johann]

Shammai? Hillel? What's their claim to fame?

How would you categorize your "club"? Don't just tell me you follow the Bible. Everyone says that. Briefly, how would you describe your beliefs?

A close friend of @Pancho Frijoles -that’s a major red flag to me.

The Bahá'í Faith, which stems from the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, acknowledges Jesus as an important manifestation of God but interprets key elements of His life, including His crucifixion, differently than traditional Christian theology.

The Bahá'í view of Jesus' crucifixion is that it indeed occurred historically, but they do not see it as a substitutionary atonement for humanity’s sins. Instead, they consider His crucifixion to be a profound demonstration of sacrifice, love, and devotion to God. Bahá'ís emphasize the spiritual meanings of religious texts over literal interpretations, so they often reinterpret biblical events allegorically or symbolically.

For example:

Bahá'ís teach that the salvation Jesus offered is tied to the revelation of divine truth, which enables humanity to grow spiritually, rather than a literal act of atonement through His death.

They believe that humanity progresses spiritually through divine guidance provided by successive messengers of God, of whom Jesus is one, rather than through a single redemptive act like the crucifixion.

This approach aligns with their broader theology, which sees all major religions as part of a progressive revelation from one God, with Bahá'u'lláh being the most recent messenger.

The Bahá'í Faith teaches that God has progressively revealed His will through a series of messengers, known as Manifestations of God, who have founded the world's great religions. These Manifestations are believed to be divinely inspired but not divine themselves. Below is a list of key figures the Bahá'í Faith recognizes as Manifestations of God:

1. Adam
Often viewed as the first Manifestation of God in the Bahá'í teachings, symbolizing the beginning of humanity's spiritual journey.

2. Noah
Recognized as a divine messenger who brought a message of renewal and faithfulness to God.

3. Abraham
Considered a Manifestation who called humanity to monotheism and obedience to God.

4. Moses
The revealer of the Torah and the lawgiver who established the foundations of Judaism.

5. Zoroaster
The founder of Zoroastrianism, who emphasized the struggle between good and evil and the worship of one God.

6. Krishna
Recognized as a Manifestation of God who delivered spiritual teachings found in the Bhagavad Gita, central to Hinduism.

7. Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama)
The founder of Buddhism, teaching detachment from the material world and the path to enlightenment.

8. Jesus Christ
Acknowledged as a Manifestation who revealed God's love and taught salvation through spiritual renewal and divine grace.

9. Muhammad
Recognized as the Seal of the Prophets in Islam, who revealed the Qur'an and taught submission to God’s will.

10. The Báb (Siyyid `Alí Muḥammad)
A central figure in Bahá'í teachings, the Báb (meaning "The Gate") heralded the coming of Bahá'u'lláh and founded the Bábí Faith as a precursor to the Bahá'í Faith.

11. Bahá'u'lláh (Mírzá Ḥusayn-‘Alí Núrí)
The founder of the Bahá'í Faith and considered the most recent Manifestation of God, revealing the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and calling for the unity of humanity and religions.

Key Teachings About Manifestations:
Unity of Religion: The Bahá'í Faith teaches that all these Manifestations are part of a single divine plan, each suited to the time and place of their revelation.
Progressive Revelation: God's message is revealed progressively, with each Manifestation providing teachings that address the spiritual and social needs of their era.
Equality of Manifestations: While each Manifestation brings unique teachings, they are all regarded as equal in their divine authority.
The Bahá'í Faith emphasizes that the teachings of these Manifestations culminate in the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, whom they regard as the fulfillment of earlier prophecies across various religious traditions.

Is this the gospel we know it @synergy?

J.

 

[synergy]

A close friend of @Pancho Frijoles -that’s a major red flag to me.

The Bahá'í Faith, which stems from the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, acknowledges Jesus as an important manifestation of God but interprets key elements of His life, including His crucifixion, differently than traditional Christian theology.

The Bahá'í view of Jesus' crucifixion is that it indeed occurred historically, but they do not see it as a substitutionary atonement for humanity’s sins. Instead, they consider His crucifixion to be a profound demonstration of sacrifice, love, and devotion to God. Bahá'ís emphasize the spiritual meanings of religious texts over literal interpretations, so they often reinterpret biblical events allegorically or symbolically.

For example:

Bahá'ís teach that the salvation Jesus offered is tied to the revelation of divine truth, which enables humanity to grow spiritually, rather than a literal act of atonement through His death.

They believe that humanity progresses spiritually through divine guidance provided by successive messengers of God, of whom Jesus is one, rather than through a single redemptive act like the crucifixion.

This approach aligns with their broader theology, which sees all major religions as part of a progressive revelation from one God, with Bahá'u'lláh being the most recent messenger.

The Bahá'í Faith teaches that God has progressively revealed His will through a series of messengers, known as Manifestations of God, who have founded the world's great religions. These Manifestations are believed to be divinely inspired but not divine themselves. Below is a list of key figures the Bahá'í Faith recognizes as Manifestations of God:

1. Adam
Often viewed as the first Manifestation of God in the Bahá'í teachings, symbolizing the beginning of humanity's spiritual journey.

2. Noah
Recognized as a divine messenger who brought a message of renewal and faithfulness to God.

3. Abraham
Considered a Manifestation who called humanity to monotheism and obedience to God.

4. Moses
The revealer of the Torah and the lawgiver who established the foundations of Judaism.

5. Zoroaster
The founder of Zoroastrianism, who emphasized the struggle between good and evil and the worship of one God.

6. Krishna
Recognized as a Manifestation of God who delivered spiritual teachings found in the Bhagavad Gita, central to Hinduism.

7. Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama)
The founder of Buddhism, teaching detachment from the material world and the path to enlightenment.

8. Jesus Christ
Acknowledged as a Manifestation who revealed God's love and taught salvation through spiritual renewal and divine grace.

9. Muhammad
Recognized as the Seal of the Prophets in Islam, who revealed the Qur'an and taught submission to God’s will.

10. The Báb (Siyyid `Alí Muḥammad)
A central figure in Bahá'í teachings, the Báb (meaning "The Gate") heralded the coming of Bahá'u'lláh and founded the Bábí Faith as a precursor to the Bahá'í Faith.

11. Bahá'u'lláh (Mírzá Ḥusayn-‘Alí Núrí)
The founder of the Bahá'í Faith and considered the most recent Manifestation of God, revealing the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and calling for the unity of humanity and religions.

Key Teachings About Manifestations:
Unity of Religion: The Bahá'í Faith teaches that all these Manifestations are part of a single divine plan, each suited to the time and place of their revelation.
Progressive Revelation: God's message is revealed progressively, with each Manifestation providing teachings that address the spiritual and social needs of their era.
Equality of Manifestations: While each Manifestation brings unique teachings, they are all regarded as equal in their divine authority.
The Bahá'í Faith emphasizes that the teachings of these Manifestations culminate in the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, whom they regard as the fulfillment of earlier prophecies across various religious traditions.

Is this the gospel we know it @synergy?

J.

There are so many holes in the supposed "progressive" revelation of the Baha'i faith that you can drive a Truck through them. Thinking that Muhammad is more progressive than Jesus makes me want to vomit.

 

[Johann]

There are so many holes in the supposed "progressive" revelation of the Baha'i faith that you can drive a Truck through them. Thinking that Muhammad is more progressive than Jesus makes me want to vomit.

The time is at hand, and we must dokimazo (test, examine, prove) the spirits, as they are actively ekpeirazontes us.

However, I would like to see @Studyman's response to your direct question.

J.

 

[Studyman]

Whatever you say, the fact is, he rarely quotes Scripture.

Amen to this.

I make it a point to quote in context, but sometimes others interject, either derailing the topic of the thread or simply pontificating.

Are you implying that I'm just a fraud, a wolf in sheep's clothing, blowing my own shofar? How about Romans 6,
7 and 8?

I don't believe Paul teaches a different truth in Ephesians than he teaches in Romans 6,7 and 8. And it is certainly truth that God is the creator and definer of "Good Works" and therefore, there are no "Good Works" apart from God. There is a difference between someone who is a "Fraud" and someone who is just misled or deceived. There are certainly frauds who come in Christ's Name to deceive according to the Jesus "of the Bible". I wasn't implying that you are a fraud, but perhaps deceived.

Oh, so you’re proclaiming the whole counsel of YHVH, not just bits and pieces, correct?

Most here are promoting "strange fire" contrary to what stands written-correct?

I was replying about your statement about Good Works and your use of part of Eph. 2 to promote your philosophy there. I simply pointed out that it seems more prudent to trust the Scriptures for knowledge, as opposed to adopting the teaching of the "many" self-proclaimed teachers which exist in this world God placed me in.

You seem offended by this belief. You shouldn't be, in my view.

And forget about what really matters-Jesus Christ, Him crucified, Him resurrected-denied by all Unitarians who also reject the 13 Pauline epistles.

Jesus the Messiah is the only way, friend-there is no other way.

The Jesus "of the Bible" tells me this.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee "the only true God", and Jesus Christ, "whom thou hast sent".

I believe that the "Way" Jesus lived and taught to others, is the "only way" to know God. That only the "Doers" of His Sayings, not just the hearers, will endure to the end of this life.

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well (GOOD) doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Jesus is my Savior, my High Priest and my Lord. Your judgment regarding those who don't adopt your specific religious philosophies mean little to me.

As Scripture says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).
Wolves and thieves may desperately try to come on this road, but it is impossible. The way is narrow and difficult, “For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matthew 7:14). The way is thlipsis-hemmed in, restricted, but it leads to eternal life.

Amen to this. I think a point missed by you is whose voice caused the most trouble for God's people in the Holy Scriptures. For Eve, it was the voice of someone who "Professed to know God". Able was killed by his own brother. Jospeh was sold by his own brothers. It was the Jews who killed the Prophets God sent to help them. Caleb and Joshua were almost stoned to death by their own brothers. Jesus was betrayed by one of His own disciples. It was the very people God sent Jesus to help, that murdered Him. Steven was murdered by his own brothers. This theme runs throughout the Holy Scriptures. Jesus didn't warn me about Islam or Atheists, rather, by a religious "many" who come in His Name to deceive. Paul warned about men who "transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ. He also taught me to beware the religious philosophies and traditions of this world. Jesus tells about a future when "Many" Christians will teach in His Name, but live in transgression of God's Commandments.

So to walk the Narrow Path Jesus walked is truly a difficult way, and there be "FEW" who find it. And we will have to deal religious men who call Jesus Lord, Lord even in our families who would turn us away from God. You want to condemn everyone who doesn't adopt the Catholic doctrine of the "Trinity". Clearly Jesus was not a Trinitarian.

So I am commanded to use caution and to "beware" and to "Take Heed" of men who promote their own religious sect or business with their own doctrines and judgments.

I'm not ashamed of trusting the Jesus of the Bible in this manner.

While I agree with the Scriptures, I have a major issue with the exegesis of those Scriptures when they fail to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the only Savior and the authority of His Word.

I don't believe Jesus overcame sin because HE was God and cannot be tempted, cannot sin, and cannot die. To me, it belittles Jesus and the extraordinary effort and Faith HE had to achieve His Victory. You promote a religion which teaches God gave Jesus such a glorious position in His Kingdom because HE was God, not because HE was a "man of sorrows" who overcame Sin by Faith. If I take the lipstick off of this popular religious philosophy, it is akin to God being the coach of a team that forbids the use of performance enhancing drugs to all the players except His Son who gets all of the performance enhancing drugs. Then when His Son outperforms all other players, God gives Him the Trophy and Glorifies His Name for doing what anyone could do, if they had the drugs.
I do not believe God is that shallow or dishonest, and the Scriptures clearly do not teach this. But mainstream Christianity does. But I also don't believe that God placed 613 Laws on the necks of every man who came out of Egypt, as a Yoke of Bondage impossible to follow. So impossible that only God can obey Him. Then lied to them by telling them they "could" obey His Laws, then killed them when they didn't. So the other 1/3 of the Godhead, according to you, had to come and save us from God and His unjust, impossible to obey Laws.

So I believe in the Authority of Jesus and His Father, the One True God who gave Him His Power, and HE is my Lord and High Priest advocating between me and His Father to this very day. I just don't believe in this world's popular religious philosophies you are promoting. I hope you might also "Take Heed" of them.

Since you are such a big friend of @Pancho Frijoles, let me ask you-do you worship other strange "messengers," as some do?

You should already know the answer to this question, because I already told you.

"I hope my friend Pancho will come to see this world's religious sects and businesses as the real danger to God's People and come to trust the Jesus "of the bible" alone for guidance. And I have no doubt that if he is seeking the God of Abraham from the heart, as He instructs, God will give him to Jesus, to show him the way."

The Bible warns, “For though we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8).

You would do good to apply that to yourself first.

Gal 1:6 A Different Gospel
¶ I am astonished that you are turning away so quickly from the one who called you by the grace of Christ to a different gospel,
Gal 1:7 not that there is a different gospel , except there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should proclaim a gospel to you contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let him be accursed!
Gal 1:9 As we said before, and now I say again, if anyone is proclaiming a gospel to you contrary to what you have received, let him be accursed!
Gal 1:10 For am I now making an appeal to people or to God? Or am I seeking to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a slave of Christ.

Let me know if you want to continue @Studyman.

Why wouldn't I want to continue?

Your gospel, and the Gospel Paul taught are two completely different gospels.

Paul taught;

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the "power of God" unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein (Within the Gospel of the Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith (Of Abraham) to faith (of Malachi): as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Old Testament verse, Hab. 2:4)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed (In the Gospel of Christ) from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because "that which may be known of God" is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power "and Godhead"; so that they are without excuse:

And Again;

Heb. 4: 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The Pharisees were not promoting the Gospel of Christ to the Galatians, but God, through His Prophets in the Old Testament, and His Son in the New Testament did. And God Chose Paul to continue the teaching.

I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ that Paul taught. I wish you would take the warning of the Jesus "of the Bible" seriously and study outside the influence of this world's religious system, in Faith.