The Issue of Limited Atonement

TibiasDad said:
The reprobate is what he is because he chooses to be; God loves all reprobates the same, and some of us believe that fact, and experience that love in ann ever increasing manner. The love is the same; the experiencing of it is variable base on our belief.



God didn’t choose Israel, he created Israel from a non-Jewish man.


Doug
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No Doug. God does not love tge reprobate with the same sort of love that He has for His church. Just as His love for Israel was different than His love for Egypt.

Sure He did. The Bible says "I did not choose you because", referring to Israel.
 
TomL said:
Conviction for one


The Work of the Holy Spirit
“I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Jn 16:4–11.
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So you could say the whole world has recieved the Holy Spirit in some way?
 
TomL said:
Atonement of itself does not remit sin as even the Calvinist Shedd noted

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]


[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.
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He did die in vain for some? Are all saved?LOL
 
Presby02 said:
It says He will send Him to the whole world. The whole world recieves Him in some way.
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No it does not say the world receives him and that claim is contrary to scripture

John 14:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you.

think biblically
 
TomL said:
No it does not say the world receives him and that claim is contrary to scripture

John 14:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you.

think biblically
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He sent to the whole world but never makes it? LOL

You appear to be contradicting yourself. Shocker I know
 
Presby02 said:
He sent to the whole world but never makes it? LOL

You appear to be contradicting yourself. Shocker I know
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Sorry that is because you assume a faulty meaning for receive the Spirit choosing not to honor scripture


John 14:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you.

why do you disregard scripture and fail to think biblically?
 
TomL said:
Sorry that is because you assume a faulty meaning for receive the Spirit choosing not to honor scripture


John 14:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you.

why do you disregard scripture and fail to think biblically?
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because a misunderstanding of the world, atonement, gospel, faith, volition, Jesus teaching and the nature of God.
 
civic said:
because a misunderstanding of the world, atonement, gospel, faith, volition, Jesus teaching and the nature of God.
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Yes There is a clear rejection of submission to the word of God. Instead of allowing scripture to define terms theology is allowed to define those things instead

Clearly the world cannot receive the spirit

So the spirits conviction of the world cannot be seen as receiving the Spirit

but rather than submit to scripture those terms are defined according to theological need.
 
Presby02 said:
Actually its not. God does not tie your hand behind your back. Adam did. It's just who does God choose to untie.
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God tied Adam’s arm if you are true to your theology. Thereby effecting our condition outside of our own volition. Then, according to Calvinism, God blames us, for not being able to do what he commands.

When God decrees from before the foundation of the world “whatsoever comes to pass” he has made the determining choice, which makes our will irrelevant, thus, not independent of God’s direct control, which means it is not free in any way.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
God tied Adam’s arm if you are true to your theology. Thereby effecting our condition outside of our own volition. Then, according to Calvinism, God blames us, for not being able to do what he commands.

When God decrees from before the foundation of the world “whatsoever comes to pass” he has made the determining choice, which makes our will irrelevant, thus, not independent of God’s direct control, which means it is not free in any way.


Doug
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Again, what you're saying is, "Why does He still find fault, for who resists His will?" And Romans answers that. You know that.
 
TibiasDad said:
God tied Adam’s arm if you are true to your theology. Thereby effecting our condition outside of our own volition. Then, according to Calvinism, God blames us, for not being able to do what he commands.

When God decrees from before the foundation of the world “whatsoever comes to pass” he has made the determining choice, which makes our will irrelevant, thus, not independent of God’s direct control, which means it is not free in any way.


Doug
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No. Adam tied his hands. Who aye the forbidden fruit? Who chose to?

Your will is relevant. It's the means He brings about whatever comes to pass.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
Again, what you're saying is, "Why does He still find fault, for who resists His will?" And Romans answers that. You know that.
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No, I am saying that your argument is akin to saying going north means you’re going south. We cannot be free to choose if God has made the choice for us.

Furthermore, your interpretation of Rom 9-11 is suspect.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
No, I am saying that your argument is akin to saying going north means you’re going south. We cannot be free to choose if God has made the choice for us.

Furthermore, your interpretation of Rom 9-11 is suspect.


Doug
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You said, "God tied Adam’s arm if you are true to your theology. Thereby effecting our condition outside of our own volition. Then, according to Calvinism, God blames us, for not being able to do what he commands."

Do you object to that? If so, then, like I said, you're saying, "Then why does He still find fault, for who resists His will?"
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
You said, "God tied Adam’s arm if you are true to your theology. Thereby effecting our condition outside of our own volition. Then, according to Calvinism, God blames us, for not being able to do what he commands."

Do you object to that? If so, then, like I said, you're saying, "Then why does He still find fault, for who resists His will?"
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Another abused and misunderstood/ misquoted verse removed from its context.
 

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