The Issue of Limited Atonement

More on the Atonement of Christ

Jesus taught provisional atonement


John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.

Jesus died for all

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

In 1 John 4:10 hilasmos/ translated as propitiation in some translations there cannot mean sooth anger and must mean something else( Expiation) than what is taught in christendom. God says love 3 times in that passage so it cannot mean anger being soothed. It means expiation as in covering for sin.

I always go to Christ who is God as my primary source of truth. His teaching must not contradict anyone else in scripture. If there seems to be a contradiction then it is with mans understanding on the topic not from Jesus teaching. He is God and He is the authority on all things. Not once did Jesus even hint His death was propitiation as taught by the reformers meaning appeasing an angry deity- that concept is pagan. That is why propitiation is not a good translation, expiation is the better translation and meaning in 1 John.

How did He view His own death- the atonement ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28- Expiation

The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John. Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin.

If we were to read propitiation ( appease an angry god as the meaning ) in 1 John 4:10 look at how absurd if reads.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to appease our angry god , to appease His anger, to appease his angry self etc.......for our sins.

That makes no sense at all theologically , grammatically or contextually. It’s a contradiction, an oxymoron.

Here are the only three uses of “propitiation” in the KJV:

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation(G2435) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26)

“And he is the propitiation (G2434) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)

“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation(G2434) for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)

As we will see, this is a very poor word to use to translate the original Greek.

Here are the definitions given for the Greek words used for propitiation:

Original Word Definitions

G2434 ἱλασμός hilasmos hil-as-mos’

a root word; n m;
AV-propitiation 2; 2
1) an appeasing, propitiating
2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation

G2435 ἱλαστήριον hilasterion hil-as-tay’-ree-on
from a derivative of G2433; n n;
AV-propitiation 1, mercyseat 1; 2
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
1a)
used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
1b) an expiatory sacrifice
1c) an expiatory victim

Since G2435 comes from G2433 we should look at that word:

2433 ἱλάσκομαι hilaskomai hil-as’-kom-ahee
middle voice from the same as 2436; v;
AV-be merciful 1, make reconciliation 1; 2
1) to render one’s self, to appease, conciliate to one’s self
1a) to become propitious, be placated or appeased
1b) to be propitious, be gracious, be merciful
2) to expiate, make propitiation for

There is only one other verse that uses “hilasterion” (G2435):

“And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; (G2435) of which we cannot now speak particularly.” (Heb 9:5)

That verse suggests that “hilasterion” is a place where mercy is given – quite different from the usual meaning of propitiation.

So, if that word had been used in Romans 3:25, would that give the verse a different meaning?

“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiationmercy seat …”

It literally means “a place or means of reconciliation, a place where atonement or unity and at-one-ment takes place.”

The only two verses that use “hilaskomai” (G2433) are:

“And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful (G2433) to me a sinner.” (Luke 18:13)

“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for (G2433) the sins of the people.” (Heb 2:17)

Those verses do not suggest anything like propitiation. What are the effects of the translation of a word meaning mercy seat as propitiation? They can’t be good.

Where did the Concept of Propitiation Come From?

Many (if not all) pagan cultures embrace the concept of propitiation and appeasement. Here is another example of modern misunderstanding:

“… Propitiation is an ancient word, which we as Christians have in common with other world religions. To propitiate a god is to offer a sacrifice that turns aside the god’s wrath. Anyone who believes in a god knows that they need some way to stay on the friendly side of that god. So they give gifts to the god, or serve in the temple, or give alms. And if the god is angry with them, they pay a price, or make a sacrifice, or find some way to soothe the god’s anger: they propitiate him.”(https://maney.us/blog/2014/03/25/trevin-wax-pagan-propitiation-vs-biblical-propitiation/)

Do we really need a way to stay on the friendly side of God? What about “God is love”?

Here are verses using “propitiation” (in the KJV):

“God presented Jesus as the way and the means of restoration. Now, through the trust established by the evidence of God’s character revealed when Christ died, we may partake of the Remedy procured by Christ. God did this to demonstrate that he is right and good — because in his forbearance he suspended, for a time, the ultimate consequence of us being out of harmony with his design for life — yet he has been falsely accused of being unfair. 26 He did it to demonstrate at the present time how right and good he is, so that he would also be seen as being right when he heals those who trust in Jesus.” (Rom 3:25-26, )

“This is what real love is: It is not that we have loved God, or that we have done something to get him to love us, but that he loved us so much that he sent his Son to become the Remedy and cure for the infection of sin and selfishness so that through him we might be restored into perfect unity with God.” (1 John 4:10, ) https://characterofgod.org/propitiation-definition/

hope this helps !!!
 
Still no response to

Sorry the text does not state they receive it

There are a number of words in the text which do not appear in the greek

Romans 5:18
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Greek
Strong'sGreekEnglishMorphology
686 [e]Ἄρα
Ara
SoConj
3767 [e]οὖν
oun
then,Conj
5613 [e]ὡς
hōs
just asAdv
1223 [e]δι’
di’
byPrep
1520 [e]ἑνὸς
henos
oneAdj-GNS
3900 [e]παραπτώματος
paraptōmatos
trespass,N-GNS
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
toPrep
3956 [e]πάντας
pantas
allAdj-AMP
444 [e]ἀνθρώπους
anthrōpous
menN-AMP
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
[it is] untoPrep
2631 [e]κατάκριμα,
katakrima
condemnation,N-ANS
3779 [e]οὕτως
houtōs
soAdv
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
alsoConj
1223 [e]δι’
di’
byPrep
1520 [e]ἑνὸς
henos
oneAdj-GNS
1345 [e]δικαιώματος
dikaiōmatos
act of righteousness,N-GNS
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
toPrep
3956 [e]πάντας
pantas
allAdj-AMP
444 [e]ἀνθρώπους
anthrōpous
menN-AMP
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
[it is] untoPrep
1347 [e]δικαίωσιν
dikaiōsin
justificationN-AFS
2222 [e]ζωῆς·
zōēs
of life.N-GFS




Further you cannot argue only the justified of mankind or all men had been condemned in Adam

nor can you make the mankind of part A different than the mankind of part B

PS not even the additional words show they actually received it
its called dodging and turning a blind eye.
 
Yes there are some things you should just know better about. Jesus said the same to a religious leader of his day when he told him, "So you're a teacher in Israel and you don't understand these things?" Jn 3 No I won't back down from it. You should down right know that you can't have one party determine something in the sense where there's no possibility for a different conclusion and then turn around and claim the other person freely choose without force of coercion.

And to one here who is at a stage where they're just trying to learn the Bible just know this that if a Calvinist tried what they do with language in a court of law that God ordains all things and yet men freely choose they'd be laughed out of the room and kicked out the door. They would not stand for this dubious contradictory double talk and nor should you.
yes limited atonement is double-talk like the rest of tulip. :)
 
the "elect" is not even mentioned in that chapter. you as expected are adding to scripture and reading your man made doctrine into the passage.

its called- EISEGESIS.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say Christ ONLY died for the elect:

Limited atonement is unbiblical

1-He died for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6).

2-He died for ALL MEN (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10).

3-He died for US ALL, for ALL OF US (Isa. 53:6).

4-He died for the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6).

5-He died for CHRIST-DENIERS (2 Peter 2:1).

6-He died for SINNERS (Rom. 5:8).

7-He died for EVERY MAN (Heb. 2:9).

8-He died for MANY not few (Matthew 20:28).

9-He died for the WORLD (John 6:33,51;
John 1:29 and John 3:16).

10-He died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2).

11-He died for the WHOLE NATION of Israel (John 11:50-51).

12-He died for the CHURCH (Eph. 5:25).

13-He died for His SHEEP (John 10:11).

14-He died for ME (Gal. 2:20).

hope this helps !!!
In fact the entire Chapter 5 of Romans is about the elect, the Saints at Rome whose Faith Paul heard of Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So Rom 5:18 the entire verse is limited to the elect, its about their fall in Adam and their restoration in Christ, has nothing to do with the non elect.

Same thing in Rom 5:19 the many both times is the elect only. Elect is mentioned as the ones Justified here Rom 8:33-34

the "elect" is not even mentioned in that chapter. you as expected are adding to scripture and reading your man made doctrine into the passage.

its called- EISEGESIS.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say Christ ONLY died for the elect:

Limited atonement is unbiblical

1-He died for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6).

2-He died for ALL MEN (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 4:10).

3-He died for US ALL, for ALL OF US (Isa. 53:6).

4-He died for the UNGODLY (Rom. 5:6).

5-He died for CHRIST-DENIERS (2 Peter 2:1).

6-He died for SINNERS (Rom. 5:8).

7-He died for EVERY MAN (Heb. 2:9).

8-He died for MANY not few (Matthew 20:28).

9-He died for the WORLD (John 6:33,51;
John 1:29 and John 3:16).

10-He died for the WHOLE WORLD (1 John 2:2).

11-He died for the WHOLE NATION of Israel (John 11:50-51).

12-He died for the CHURCH (Eph. 5:25).

13-He died for His SHEEP (John 10:11).

14-He died for ME (Gal. 2:20).

hope this helps !!!
Elect is mentioned clearly here for Justification Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The word elect doesnt have to be stated every other word, its already understood its all for the elect.
 
These Greek Lexicons affirm world means all, everyone, the whole world without exception.

Thayers

Cosmos: the inhabitants of the

5. world
: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. )): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29 ( L in brackets); ; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); ; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536)); ἀρχαῖος κόσμος, of the antediluvians, 2 Peter 2:5; γέννασθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 16:21; ἔρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον (John 9:39) and εἰς τόν κόσμον τοῦτον, to make its appearance or come into existence among men, spoken of the light which in Christ shone upon men, John 1:9; John 3:19, cf. 12:46; of the Messiah, John 6:14; John 11:27; of Jesus as the Messiah, John 9:39; John 16:28; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 1:15; also ἐισέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον, Hebrews 10:5; of false teachers, 2 John 1:7 (yet here L T Tr WH ἐξέρχεσθαι εἰς τόν κόσμον; (so all texts in 1 John 4:1)); to invade, of evils coming into existence among men and beginning to exert their power: of sin and death, Romans 5:12 (of death, Wis. 2:24; Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 3, 4 [ET]; of idolatry, Wis. 14:14). ἀποστέλλειν τινα εἰς τόν κόσμον, John 3:17; John 10:36; John 17:18; 1 John 4:9; φῶς τοῦ κόσμου, Matthew 5:14; John 8:12; John 9:5; σωτήρ τοῦ κόσμου, John 4:42; 1 John 4:14 (σωτηρία τοῦ κόσμου Wis. 6:26 (25); ἐλπίς τοῦ κόσμου, Wis. 14:6; πρωτόπλαστος πατήρ τοῦ κόσμου, of Adam, Wis. 10:1); στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου (see στοιχεῖον, 3 and 4); ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, among men, John 16:33; John 17:13; Ephesians 2:12; ἐν κόσμῳ (see Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)), 1 Timothy 3:16; εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου, to dwell among men, John 1:10; John 9:5; John 17:11, 12 R G; 1 John 4:3; εἶναι ἐν κόσμῳ, to be present, Romans 5:13; ἐξελθεῖν, ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to withdraw from human society and seek an abode outside of it, 1 Corinthians 5:10; ἀναστρέφεσθαι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, to behave oneself, 2 Corinthians 1:12; likewise εἶναι ἐν τῷ κόσμου τούτῳ, 1 John 4:17.

6.
"the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ" (cf. Winer's Grammar, 26): John 7:7; John 14:27 (); ; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 Corinthians 6:2; 1 Corinthians 11:32; 2 Corinthians 7:10; James 1:27; 1 Peter 5:9; 2 Peter 1:4; 2 Peter 2:20; 1 John 3:1, 13; 1 John 4:5; 1 John 5:19; of the aggregate of ungodly and wicked men in O. T. times, Hebrews 11:38; in Noah's time, ibid. 7; with οὗτος added, Ephesians 2:2 (on which see αἰών, 3); εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου and ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου (see εἰμί, V. 3rd.), John 8:23; John 15:19; John 17:14, 16; 1 John 4:5; λαλεῖν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου, to speak in accordance with the world's character and mode of thinking, 1 John 4:5; ὁ ἄρχων τοῦ κόσμου τούτου, i. e. the devil, John 12:31; John 14:30; John 16:11; ὁ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ he that is operative in the world (also of the devil), 1 John 4:4; τό πνεῦμα τοῦ κόσμου

b. of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16, 17c; 6:33, 51; 12:47.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 446.

1 John 2:2-He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:15-17
-Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

1 John 4:3-6- but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 John 4:14- And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world

1 John 5:19
- We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Now its very clear from the Lexicon definition and in 1 John that the cosmos/world does not mean Gods elect (that is Calvinism) not what John means in his epistle. It clearly means everyone with no exceptions in this world, all of its inhabitants who make up the ungodly multitude. It is clearly all inclusive of everyone, all, the entire world that lies under the evil one in opposition to God from the context of 1 John.

Only someone with a closed mind trapped in their dogma/doctrine would argue otherwise resulting in eisegesis( reading their own ideas into the text) rather than exegesis ( letting the text dictate ones ideas ).

We see above that the whole world lies under the evil one and its that same identical whole world in 1 John 2:2 that Jesus made PROPITIATION for which is clear from the CONTEXT in 1 John.

Its that world whom Christ made atonement/ propitiation. Doctrine/Dogma will never cloud my mind and never will I allow any systematic theology or bias to cloud my view of Scripture.

hope this helps !!!
The atonement is limited to the all that Justification of life came upon because of Jesus Death Rom 5:18

therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one[Jesus Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 
Still no response to

Sorry the text does not state they receive it

There are a number of words in the text which do not appear in the greek

Romans 5:18
Text Analysis
Go to Parallel Greek
Strong'sGreekEnglishMorphology
686 [e]Ἄρα
Ara
SoConj
3767 [e]οὖν
oun
then,Conj
5613 [e]ὡς
hōs
just asAdv
1223 [e]δι’
di’
byPrep
1520 [e]ἑνὸς
henos
oneAdj-GNS
3900 [e]παραπτώματος
paraptōmatos
trespass,N-GNS
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
toPrep
3956 [e]πάντας
pantas
allAdj-AMP
444 [e]ἀνθρώπους
anthrōpous
menN-AMP
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
[it is] untoPrep
2631 [e]κατάκριμα,
katakrima
condemnation,N-ANS
3779 [e]οὕτως
houtōs
soAdv
2532 [e]καὶ
kai
alsoConj
1223 [e]δι’
di’
byPrep
1520 [e]ἑνὸς
henos
oneAdj-GNS
1345 [e]δικαιώματος
dikaiōmatos
act of righteousness,N-GNS
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
toPrep
3956 [e]πάντας
pantas
allAdj-AMP
444 [e]ἀνθρώπους
anthrōpous
menN-AMP
1519 [e]εἰς
eis
[it is] untoPrep
1347 [e]δικαίωσιν
dikaiōsin
justificationN-AFS
2222 [e]ζωῆς·
zōēs
of life.N-GFS




Further you cannot argue only the justified of mankind or all men had been condemned in Adam

nor can you make the mankind of part A different than the mankind of part B

PS not even the additional words show they actually received it
In fact the entire Chapter 5 of Romans is about the elect, the Saints at Rome whose Faith Paul heard of Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So Rom 5:18 the entire verse is limited to the elect, its about their fall in Adam and their restoration in Christ, has nothing to do with the non elect.

Same thing in Rom 5:19 the many both times is the elect only
 
In fact the entire Chapter 5 of Romans is about the elect, the Saints at Rome whose Faith Paul heard of Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So Rom 5:18 the entire verse is limited to the elect, its about their fall in Adam and their restoration in Christ, has nothing to do with the non elect.

Same thing in Rom 5:19 the many both times is the elect only. Elect is mentioned as the ones Justified here Rom 8:33-34


Elect is mentioned clearly here for Justification Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The word elect doesnt have to be stated every other word, its already understood its all for the elect.
Um unconditional election does not appear in Romans 5
 
Um unconditional election does not appear in Romans 5
In fact the entire Chapter 5 of Romans is about the elect, the Saints at Rome whose Faith Paul heard of Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So Rom 5:18 the entire verse is limited to the elect, its about their fall in Adam and their restoration in Christ, has nothing to do with the non elect.

Same thing in Rom 5:19 the many both times is the elect only. Elect is mentioned as the ones Justified here Rom 8:33-34


Elect is mentioned clearly here for Justification Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The word elect doesnt have to be stated every other word, its already understood its all for the elect.
 
In fact the entire Chapter 5 of Romans is about the elect, the Saints at Rome whose Faith Paul heard of Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So Rom 5:18 the entire verse is limited to the elect, its about their fall in Adam and their restoration in Christ, has nothing to do with the non elect.

Same thing in Rom 5:19 the many both times is the elect only. Elect is mentioned as the ones Justified here Rom 8:33-34


Elect is mentioned clearly here for Justification Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The word elect doesnt have to be stated every other word, its already understood its all for the elect.
You have not produced a single thing that actually speaks of unconditional election

When are you going to start
 
You have not produced a single thing that actually speaks of unconditional election

When are you going to start
In fact the entire Chapter 5 of Romans is about the elect, the Saints at Rome whose Faith Paul heard of Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So Rom 5:18 the entire verse is limited to the elect, its about their fall in Adam and their restoration in Christ, has nothing to do with the non elect.

Same thing in Rom 5:19 the many both times is the elect only. Elect is mentioned as the ones Justified here Rom 8:33-34


Elect is mentioned clearly here for Justification Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The word elect doesnt have to be stated every other word, its already understood its all for the elect.
 
In fact the entire Chapter 5 of Romans is about the elect, the Saints at Rome whose Faith Paul heard of Rom 1:7-8

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

So Rom 5:18 the entire verse is limited to the elect, its about their fall in Adam and their restoration in Christ, has nothing to do with the non elect.

Same thing in Rom 5:19 the many both times is the elect only. Elect is mentioned as the ones Justified here Rom 8:33-34


Elect is mentioned clearly here for Justification Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The word elect doesnt have to be stated every other word, its already understood its all for the elect.
So where is unconditional election spoken of?

I have yet to see a single verse.
 
I'm not going to take a stand on whether or not atonement is limited or sufficient for all because I honestly don't know.

I'd just like to hear from non-Calvinists as to how they reconcile their view of atonement with the fact that not all people will be saved. Isn't that, by definition, limited atonement? Or is there another explanation?
There is no limited atonement, John 3:16 makes that clear. Christ died for all but not all will come to faith in Him. They exercise their freewill to resist the gospel. There are many reasons why people do not accept the gospel.
 
There is no limited atonement, John 3:16 makes that clear. Christ died for all but not all will come to faith in Him. They exercise their freewill to resist the gospel. There are many reasons why people do not accept the gospel.
Limited atonement is a doctrine in search of a text. No one can point to any text in Scripture that states clearly and unequivocally that Christ died for the sins of a limited number of people to the exclusion of others
 
Limited atonement is a doctrine in search of a text. No one can point to any text in Scripture that states clearly and unequivocally that Christ died for the sins of a limited number of people to the exclusion of others
Absolutely true

Proponents of the doctrine traditionally appeal to a negative inference fallacy

They assume if one text states he died for the church, he died for no other

That is just an assumption contradicted by many verses of scripture
 
Absolutely true

Proponents of the doctrine traditionally appeal to a negative inference fallacy

They assume if one text states he died for the church, he died for no other

That is just an assumption contradicted by many verses of scripture
In fact, such argumentation is an example of the negative inference fallacy, which states that “it does not necessarily follow that if a proposition is true, a negative inference from that proposition is also true.” This is a logical error commonly made by Calvinists. In other words, if the proposition Christ died for his sheep is true, it does not follow that the negative inference, Christ did not die for anyone else, is also true. Logically, it is quite possible that Christ died for his sheep and for others too.

Saved by Grace through Faith or Saved by Decree? Geoffrey D. Robinson
 
@Ozias

Limited atonement is a doctrine in search of a text. No one can point to any text in Scripture that states clearly and unequivocally that Christ died for the sins of a limited number of people to the exclusion of others
This scripture does it for me Jn10:11,15,26

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And for you or anyone else to suppose that Christs Death was for them that shall yet perish, it reveals their low view of His Redemptive/Saving Death.
 
@Ozias


This scripture does it for me Jn10:11,15,26

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

And for you or anyone else to suppose that Christs Death was for them that shall yet perish, it reveals their low view of His Redemptive/Saving Death.
That does nothing at all to deny Christ died for all

Christ died list

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Exported from Logos Bible Study, 2:59 PM September 29, 2024.
 
That does nothing at all to deny Christ died for all

Christ died list

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Exported from Logos Bible Study, 2:59 PM September 29, 2024.
He says He died specifically for His Sheep, to add to that is speculation
 
Back
Top Bottom