Diserner
Well-known member
The problem with their belief is they think one member of the Trinity is the other's soul.
They think Jesus is the soul of the Father or something bizarre.
It is not weird to think God has a soul at all.
The Hypostatic Union- the 2 Natures in Christ
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The problem with their belief is they think one member of the Trinity is the other's soul.
They think Jesus is the soul of the Father or something bizarre.
It is not weird to think God has a soul at all.
civic
Well-known member
Have you ever heard of that before ? I never have.
I agree.
Animals have souls. Creatures have souls. Does that prove that God has a literal soul? Not necessarily. Ask yourself what is the purpose of souls.
Diserner
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Johann
Well-known member
One problem-And denying his humanity is also a heresy.
You wanna keep the chain going??
First of all, Christians do not worship the humanity of Jesus -- they worship God incarnate in Jesus. God 'dwelt' in Jesus, in a way analogous to how He 'dwelt' in the Tabernacle and Solomonic Temple. His presence and His Name were 'in' them.
Although the theology can get complicated--a consequence of trying to describe the relationship between God and His creation!--the overall concept is that God dwelt among us and manifested His glory to us in the person and life of Jesus.
The Son of God Jesus had a human body, but Christians do not worship His body in any way. His flesh was like the curtains of the Tabernacle or like the stone walls of the Temple. Israelites did not worship the cloth of the curtains, nor the stone and timber of the Temple--they worshipped the God who 'dwelt' inside those.
When GOD first appeared to Moses in the burning bush, the locale was made sacred by the temporary presence of God, but Moses would not have worshipped the leaves or branches of the bush!
So also Jesus is described as a 'temple' and as the 'tabernacle' and the 'dwelling' of God's presence and glory:
One. Jesus as Temple ( John 2.18ff):
So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?” 19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
This was a reference to the dwelling place of God:
"The distinction in the words translated “temple” in vv. 14 and 19–21 is worth noting. In v. 14 the word is ἱερόν (hieron), which refers to a “shrine” or “holy building.” This usage is consistent throughout the NT. The word ναός (naos) appears in vv. 19–21 and signifies the “dwelling place” of deity. [EBC]
Two. Jesus as Tabernacle (John 1.14, with Jesus as Word/Memra of God):
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth
The word 'dwelt' in that passage is a reference to the 'tent' (Tabernacle) of the wilderness, in which the LORD revealed His character/nature as "full of grace and truth" (in Hebrew bible = loyal love and faithfulness)
"the Word … made his home (Greek skēnoō, “pitched his tent”) among us: This Greek word is related to the word used for the OT Tabernacle (Greek skēnē, “tent, tabernacle”), the tent in the wilderness where the Lord’s glory resided and where Israel came to worship (Exod 25:8–9). The Father’s glory in the Tabernacle (Exod 40:34–38) was now present in Jesus Christ (2:11; 12:23–28, 41; 17:1–5). • Jesus offered God’s unfailing love and faithfulness (or grace and truth).. [New Living Translation Study Bible. 2008 (Study notes at Jn 1:14). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers, Inc.]
"Into that condition of human weakness the Logos “pitched his tent” (ἐσκήνωσεν, from σκηνή, “tent”) and revealed his glory (cf. shekinah, having the same consonants as the Greek σκηνή). The language is evocative of the revelation of God’s glory in the Exodus—by the Red Sea, on Mount Sinai, and at the tent of meeting by Israel’s camp (especially the last; see Exod 33:7–11; for the glory in and upon the Tabernacle cf. Exod 40:34–38). The Exodus associations are intentional, and are part of the theme of the revelation and redemption of the Logos-Christ as fulfilling the hope of a second Exodus. [WBC]
"became flesh. “Flesh” stands for the whole man. It is interesting that even in the unsophisticated Christological terminology of the 1st century it is not said that the Word became a man, but equivalently that the Word became man. made his dwelling. Skēnoun, related to skēnē, “tent,” is literally “to pitch a tent.” … Verse 14b and the succeeding lines show that, if the Word has become flesh, he has not ceased to be God. In 14b this is given expression in the verb skēnoun (“make a dwelling; pitch a tent”) which has important OT associations. The theme of “tenting” is found in Exod 25:8–9 where Israel is told to make a tent (the Tabernacle—skēnē) so that God can dwell among His people; the Tabernacle became the site of God’s localized presence on earth. It was promised that in the ideal days to come this tenting among men would be especially impressive. Joel 3:17 says, “You will know that I am the Lord your God who makes his dwelling [kataskēnoun] in Zion.” At the time of the return from the Babylonian Exile Zech 2:10 proclaims: “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for look, I come and will make my dwelling [kataskēnoun] in your midst.” In the ideal Temple described by Ezekiel (43:7) God will make His dwelling in the midst of His people forever, or as the LXX has it: “My name shall dwell in the midst of the house of Israel forever.” (The latter is interesting in view of the Johannine interest in the name.) When the Prologue proclaims that the Word made his dwelling among men, we are being told that the flesh of Jesus Christ is the new localization of God’s presence on earth, and that Jesus is the replacement of the ancient Tabernacle. The Gospel will present Jesus as the replacement of the Temple (2:19–22), which is a variation of the same theme. In Rev 7:15 the verb skēnoun is used of God’s presence in heaven, while in 21:3 the great vision of the heavenly Jerusalem echoes the promise of the prophets, “He will dwell [skēnoun] with them, and they shall be His people.”
Thus, in dwelling among men, the Word anticipates the divine presence which according to Revelation will be visible to men in the last days. As an intermediary between the pentateuchal and prophetic use of “tenting” and the use of “tenting” in the Prologue we may call attention to passages in the Wisdom Literature where Wisdom is said to tent or make her dwelling among men. In the hymn of Sir 24, Wisdom sings: “The Creator of all … chose the spot for my tent, saying, ‘In Jacob make your dwelling [kataskēnoun], in Israel your inheritance.’ ” Thus, in making his dwelling among men, the Word is acting in the manner of Wisdom. There is another aspect of the divine presence suggested in vs. 14b. The radicals skn which underlie the Greek verb “to tent” resemble the Hebrew root škn which also means “to dwell” and from which the noun shekinah is derived. In rabbinic theology shekinah was a technical term for God’s presence dwelling among His people. For instance, in Exod 25:8 where God says, “Let them make me a sanctuary that I may dwell among them,” the Targum or Aramaic translation has, “I shall cause my shekinah to reside among them.” Like the use of memra discussed in App. II, the use of shekinah as a surrogate for Yahweh in His dealings with men was a way of preserving God’s transcendence.
The Targum of Deut 12:5 has God’s shekinah dwell in the sanctuary rather than His name. The threat in Hos 5:6 that Yahweh will withdraw from Israel becomes in the Targum a threat that He will cause His shekinah to ascend to heaven and depart from men. Even the omnipresence of God which no sanctuary can compass is called His shekinah in the Talmud. Though some of these works stem from a period later than the 1st century A.D., the theology of the shekinah was known at that time; and it is quite possible that in the use of skēnoun the Prologue is reflecting the idea that Jesus is now the shekinah of God, the locus of contact between the Father and those men among whom it is His delight to be. The thought of the divine presence in Jesus who now serves as the Tabernacle and perhaps as the shekinah overflows into vs. 14c: “We have seen his glory.” In the OT the glory of God (Heb. kābôd; Gr. doxa—see App. I) implies a visible and powerful manifestation of God to men. In the Targums “glory” also became a surrogate, like memra and shekinah, for the visible presence of God among men, although its use was not as frequent as that of the other surrogates. (If in Exod 24:10 we are told that Moses and the elders saw the God of Israel, in Targum Onkelos we hear that they “saw the glory [Aram. yeqar] of the God of Israel.”) However, what we are primarily interested in is the constant connection of the glory of God with His presence in the Tabernacle and the Temple. When Moses went up Mount Sinai (Exod 24:15–16), we are told that a cloud covered the mountain and the glory of God settled there while God told Moses how to build the Tabernacle. When the Tabernacle was erected, the cloud covered it and the glory of God filled it (Exod 40:34). The same phenomenon is reported when Solomon’s Temple was dedicated (1 Kings 8:10–11).
Just before the destruction of the Temple by the Babylonians, Ezek 11:23 tells us that the glory of God left the city; but in the vision of the restored Temple Ezekiel saw the glory of God once more filling the building (44:4). Thus, it is quite appropriate that, after the description of how the Word set up a Tabernacle among men in the flesh of Jesus, the Prologue should mention that his glory became visible. [Brown, R. E., S.S. (2008). The Gospel according to John (I-XII): Introduction, translation, and notes (32–34). New Haven; London: Yale University Press.]
GeneZ
Well-known member
And you would be a Nestorian Kenosis hybrid who believes in 2/3 of the Trinity are soul less
Children! Children! Stop your fighting!
Daddy will deal with you if you don't!
Plain and simple.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Humans are sinful. At least admit that you're recognizing a human condition that Christ did not share.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
I luv southern soul food- I'm a foodie
GeneZ
Well-known member
Good Jazz began as freedom music...
“Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.”
2 Corinthians 3:17
Down home cooking is sitting down to blessings.
.
GeneZ
Well-known member
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I've heard of the preexistent human form within God before the Incarnation. Jehovah Witnesses believe that the word "soul" is just a reference to the human condition.
It sounds like some form of "JW" to me....
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And all the while I thought it was the lower flat part of one's shoe. Silly me. That's why we have to be clear on what they are and what is their purpose. If anyone has an idea please speak up.
GeneZ
Well-known member
But you must keep in mind... "God is spirit."
Soul is soul and not spirit...
Its the Son who has a Soul in union with God. That union is what distinguishes Him from the Father and Holy Spirit.
For they do not have a soul in union with their Deity.
The Son was always being the union of God and Soul as seen in passages in the OT in regards to the Lord God of Israel.
Here are a few OT passages that show a union of Soul and Jehovah when speaking of the Lord God of Israel to the nation of Israel.
'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover,
I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.'I will also walk
among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12
And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah,
so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16
Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone
loving violence his soul certainly hates." Psalm 11:5
We find two different natures in union shown in those verses!
That speaks of the same soul that later entered the body born of Mary as His means to make Himself become as a man in the truest sense.
Philippians 2:6-8 tells us that He did make himself become as a man. That to do so, He denied himself of his right to be enabled by his powers
of Deity....
Look up Philippians 2:6-8 in several translations. It begins to make sense that way. Biblical sense.
grace and peace ..............
Diserner
Well-known member
The purpose of all souls is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.
Yes, God glorifies and enjoys himself!
Diserner
Well-known member
That can be done with our spirit and even our bodies. What differentiates our soul from our spirit?
civic
Well-known member
We have all eternity to wait and it will never be found in written word of God or the spoken word of God.
I think GZ's error is in thinking that the Word already possessed a Soul before the Incarnation.We have all eternity to wait and it will never be found in written word of God or the spoken word of God.
Are you saying that they do have a literal soul in union with their Deity?
