5 Non-Negotiables from the Church Fathers on the Incarnation

[101G]

Roles not mean Modalism.

Each Person has a role—the Father plans, the Son saves, and the Spirit moves.

that's a function

101G

 

[Dizerner]

that's a function

And what are roles if not performing specific functions?

Decorative?

I give up.

 

[101G]

And what are roles if not performing specific functions?

Decorative?

I give up.

Don't throw in the towel yet. The main difference between role and function is that role is a part played by someone in a particular situation whereas function is the duty of someone or the natural purpose of something.

101G

 

[Dizerner]

Don't throw in the towel yet. The main difference between role and function is that role is a part played by someone in a particular situation whereas function is the duty of someone or the natural purpose of something.

101G

Okay, I will give you one last chance to answer straight or play coy.

Do you think the Trinity is three different roles played by one person?

Yes or no.

 

[101G]

Okay, I will give you one last chance to answer straight or play coy.

Do you think the Trinity is three different roles played by one person?

Yes or no.

yes, in reverse. think about what 101G just said. many use the TERM "GOD" in that ROLE PLAY...... when it's convenient.

101G

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not saying you refer to God as a pantheon. I know you don't.
I'm placing the fact that the Greek Pantheon was conceived a collective of divine persons, and the Trinitarian Godhead is also conceived a collective of divine persons.
This is a fact, not an opinion. If I am wrong, please show me why.

I am also saying that the Greek Pantheon was bad, while the Trinitarian Godhead is good. This was a big leap in understanding God for many Pagans.

Seriously...... this "guilt by association" is getting ridiculous......

 

[civic]

No, Dizerner. The burden proof rests on your shoulders.
Jesus said in unequivocal terms that the Only and True God, his God, is The Father. (John 17:1-3, John 20:17).
So, if anyone else claims to be God, the burden of proof belongs to the person making that claim.
Such person should prove that he/she is the God Jesus worshipped,

Imagine that I challenged you: “Enoch is God… if you don’t believe me, prove that Enoch is not God.”
Just think about it….

He was making Himself equal with the Father in John 17:1-5.

1- eternal life is only found in God alone making Himself equal with the Father in verse 3
2- He was together with the Father before creation. Only God exists prior to creation. Verse 5

Next fallacy

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Of course the Father was Jesus' God, as he became man for us.

I’m a man. You’re a man. @Johann is a man.
So, since we are men, let’s consider The Father our Only and True God.
Whatever the relationship between God and His Christ is, it is beyond our comprehension and needs.
We are men, and as men, let’s take the same perspective that Jesus left us in the gospels.

The prayer I’ve suggested takes the perspective of Jesus like a man: Father, I know that eternal life means to come to know you, the Only and True God… and also to come to know Jesus, whom You sent. You are his Father and my Father, his God and my God.”

And Jesus was the also the substance of his Father.

2 At the end of these days, He hath spoken unto us in his Son,--
whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he hath made the ages;
3 Who, being the radiant brightness of his glory,
and the exact representation of his very being,
also bearing up all things by the utterance of his power,
purification of sins, having achieved, sat down on the right hand of the majesty in high places: (Heb. 1:2-3)

Adam was the image of God. But Adam worshipped the Father, not the the other way around.
Christ was the image of God. But Christ worshipped the Father, not the other way around.

By definition, God

• does not worship anyone else.
• is not the image or representation of anyone else.
• does not receive authority or power from anyone else.
• does not speak the words of anyone else.
• does not hand his Kingdom to anyone else
• does not sit on the right of anyone else

 

[Dizerner]

Imagine that I challenged you: “Enoch is God… if you don’t believe me, prove that Enoch is not God.”
Just think about it….

I accept your challenge.

13 reasons Enoch is not God:

1. Enoch cannot have eternally co-existed with God.
2. Enoch cannot have co-created the world.
3. Enoch cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.
4. Enoch cannot contain the principle of life itself inside him.
5. Enoch cannot destroy the power of death in himself.
6. Enoch cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.
7. Enoch cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.
8. Enoch has admonitions not to idolize or worship him.
9. Enoch cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.
10. Enoch was not ever directly associated with anything divine.
11. Enoch cannot demand that nothing be loved more than him as it would be commanding idolatry.
12. Enoch cannot call himself the only absolute way and truth.
13. Enoch cannot uphold all other things.

 

[civic]

I’m a man. You’re a man. @Johann is a man.
So, since we are men, let’s consider The Father our Only and True God.
Whatever the relationship between God and His Christ is, it is beyond our comprehension and needs.
We are men, and as men, let’s take the same perspective that Jesus left us in the gospels.

The prayer I’ve suggested takes the perspective of Jesus like a man: Father, I know that eternal life means to come to know you, the Only and True God… and also to come to know Jesus, whom You sent. You are his Father and my Father, his God and my God.”


Adam was the image of God. But Adam worshipped the Father, not the the other way around.
Christ was the image of God. But Christ worshipped the Father, not the other way around.

By definition, God

• does not worship anyone else.
• is not the image or representation of anyone else.
• does not receive authority or power from anyone else.
• does not speak the words of anyone else.
• does not hand his Kingdom to anyone else
• does not sit on the right of anyone else

Jesus is the only and one/ true Lord.
Your logic leaves out the Father as Lord just as it leaves out the Son as God.

You cannot have your cake and it eat too especially since John calls the Son the True God and Eternal Life.

Your view contradicts the Bible whereas ours does not.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

I accept your challenge.

13 reasons Enoch is not God:

1. Enoch cannot have eternally co-existed with God.
2. Enoch cannot have co-created the world.
3. Enoch cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.
4. Enoch cannot contain the principle of life itself inside him.
5. Enoch cannot destroy the power of death in himself.
6. Enoch cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.
7. Enoch cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.
8. Enoch has admonitions not to idolize or worship him.
9. Enoch cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.
10. Enoch was not ever directly associated with anything divine.
11. Enoch cannot demand that nothing be loved more than him as it would be commanding idolatry.
12. Enoch cannot call himself the only absolute way and truth.
13. Enoch cannot uphold all other things.

Oops

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

He was making Himself equal with the Father in John 17:1-5.

1- eternal life is only found in God alone making Himself equal with the Father in verse 3

Dear civic:
We know Jesus Christ gives eternal life. That's precisely why we follow Him. Such eternal life is in his words (John 6:63). Such words are the words that the Father asked Him to speak. (John 14:24)

But Jesus does not call himself "The True and Only God". Jesus calls himself "The One You Sent", which is just what He kept saying about Himself over and over. If Jesus were making himself equal to the Father, He would have said instead: "And this is eternal life, that they know us, the Only True God".

2- He was together with the Father before creation. Only God exists prior to creation. Verse 5

Not only God. .
the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; (Ephesians 3:9)

So we have two persons from the beginning of the ages: God, and Jesus Christ.
Therefore, preexistence is not deity.

 

[Dizerner]

He would have said instead: "And this is eternal life, that they know us, the Only True God".

The Father being the Only True God does not logically exclude Christ, if God is multiple people.

You are over reading into the word "only" there as exclusionary of a multi-personal god.

But the word "god" is not semantically equal to the word "person."

Oneness/Unitarians often do this.

Not only God. .
the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; (Ephesians 3:9)

So we have two persons from the beginning of the ages: God, and Jesus Christ. Therefore, preexistence is not deity.

Now this is just begging the question (avoiding), your argument is circular.

The mystery is literally hidden IN GOD, it is a part of God himself, the mystery of Christ is within God, thus a part of him.

Notice the mystery is "unsearchable," given the quality of the infinite.

Now you keep acting like you respect the Bible, but frankly now, may I ask—

Do you consider the Bible inspired, or are you just acting like that to masquerade as a Christian?​

 

[civic]

Dear civic:
We know Jesus Christ gives eternal life. That's precisely why we follow Him. Such eternal life is in his words (John 6:63). Such words are the words that the Father asked Him to speak. (John 14:24)

But Jesus does not call himself "The True and Only God". Jesus calls himself "The One You Sent", which is just what He kept saying about Himself over and over. If Jesus were making himself equal to the Father, He would have said instead: "And this is eternal life, that they know us, the Only True God".




Not only God. .
the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; (Ephesians 3:9)

So we have two persons from the beginning of the ages: God, and Jesus Christ.
Therefore, preexistence is not deity.

No man can give eternal life to anyone.
No man can redeem another man

name anyone in the Bible except the Father/Son who gives eternal life/salvation from sin to anyone ?

And remember this biblical fact below

Psalm 49:7-8- No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God. for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice,

hope this helps !!!

 

[Dizerner]

Psalm 49:7-8- No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God. for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice,

hope this helps !!!

Very, very important verse there.

 

[civic]

Very, very important verse there.

And it gets avoided like the plague lol.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I accept your challenge.

You can’t, my friend. That’s exactly the problem with fallacies ex silentio. Look below an example on how this would go if I followed the same fallacious reasoning (remember: my replies to your arguments represent examples and variants of fallacies ex silentio)

13 reasons Enoch is not God:

1. Enoch cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

Why not? The mere fact that the Bible doesn’t say that does not prove Enoch did not co-existed with God eternally. In fact, this is precisely why He didn’t die. He fulfilled his mission on earth and return to the eternal coexistence with God.

2. Enoch cannot have co-created the world.

Why not? Prove it. The fact that the Bible mentions The Son does not exclude the possibility that Enoch was also contributing.

3. Enoch cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

Why not? The fact that the Bible mentions that Jesus did i it doesn’t mean that the The Holy Spirit or The Father or Enoch couldn’t do it. They were all eternal and preexistent. is

4. Enoch cannot contain the principle of life itself inside him.

Why not? Prove it. In fact, this is why he didn’t die.

5. Enoch cannot destroy the power of death in himself.

Same as for item #3

6. Enoch cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.

Why not? The fact that the Bible doesn’t say that the Holy Spirit receives praise and devotion from every created thing doesn’t prove the Holy Spirit cannot receive it, as it is God. Same with Enoch.

7. Enoch cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

Why not? Same as for item #6

8. Enoch has admonitions not to idolize or worship him.

(I didn’t understand what you meant in this item)

9. Enoch cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.

Why not? He can. If you doubt it, prove he can’t.

10. Enoch was not ever directly associated with anything divine.

(The following reply does not belong to the category of fallacy ex silentio, because your statement is easy enough to be refuted directly from the Bible): What? He walked with God, according to Genesis Is this not a direct association?

11. Enoch cannot demand that nothing be loved more than him as it would be commanding idolatry.

Of course he can. The fact that this claim does not appear on the Bible does not mean he can’t. Just think: When the Holy Spirit demanded to be loved above all things? Yet, the Holly’s Spirit can do it. Same with Enoch. He can demand that from us. Prove that Enoch is not demanding to be loved above all things before inhabitants of a planet in the galaxy of Andromeda.

12. Enoch cannot call himself the only absolute way and truth.

Why not? Of course he can. That’s exactly why he could walk with God and be with God for eternity. Prove that Enoch cannot claim that.

13. Enoch cannot uphold all other things.

Why not, if Enoch is God? The fact that one Person of the Godhead is said to uphold all things does not preclude that another Person of the Godhead, like Enoch, can do it as well. Do you challenge the fact that the Holy Spirit can hold all other things, for example? What about the Fifth Person of the Godhead: the one identified in the OT as The Angel of YHWH? Can you prove that this Fifth Person cannot uphold all things?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Very, very important verse there.

Of course nobody can pay for another person. And God expects nobody to pay for another person.
Paying ransoms is NOT the way God forgives. Each person is held responsible for his own errors

“The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” (Ezekiel 18:20)

When ransoms are mentioned (eg in Paul epistles) it is allegorical… it refers to the old tradition of buying a slave to the owner in order to set him free.
“You were bought at a price. Do not be the servants of men. (1 Cor 7:23)

Sin represents the owner. We represent the slave. Jesus represents the buyer. His life represents the price paid.

 

[Dizerner]

Why not? The mere fact that the Bible doesn’t say that does not prove Enoch did not co-existed with God eternally.

Friend, in fact that is exactly what it proves, because Scripture is our authority.

Scripture tells us that Jesus is unique as man with the infinite divine nature, and that all other men are sinful, limited and weak.

As soon as you doubt that with "why not?" you have thrown out Scriptural authority.

And that is actually what is at the bottom of all this—you want to "pretend" you're one of the Bible guys, but you are not.

You are a pluralist who does not respect the Bible's authority and your only goal is to try to use it to make it inclusive where it is exclusive.

But the Bible is not accepting of other religions and beliefs in a big mish-mash hodge-podge of endless deities and moralities.

It exalts Jesus Christ above Enoch and every other man that ever lived, as the only way to God.

Enoch is a only man—and by nature, a man is sinful, limited and fallen—and that is the proof you seek.

Yet you are a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god (Ezek. 28:2 NKJ)

For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin. (Eccl. 7:20 NKJ)

4 How then can man be righteous before God? Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?
5 If even the moon does not shine, And the stars are not pure in His sight,
6 How much less man, who is a maggot, And a son of man, who is a worm?" (Job 25:4-6 NKJ)

At this point you are just resisting the Holy Spirit and God's clear Word, and although I genuinely love and you hope one day you find repentance of your sinful beliefs and self-righteous lifestyle, I cannot entertain your repeated false assertions and anti-Biblical arguments anymore because they have been fully answered and must not be treated as genuine or having any validity, as saddened as my heart is worrying at your fate.

But it's for your own good, and what is best for you.

I hope you renounce your error and trust in your own goodness and I can see you one day again in heaven where you will truly give all the glory to Jesus Christ as he so richly deserves and as the Almighty God that he is, where every knee will bow to him and every tongue confess he is Lord, no Buddhas and no Brahmas in sight.


Peace and respect in Christ, it has been an honor discussing with you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Friend, in fact that is exactly what it proves, because Scripture is our authority.

Scripture tells us that Jesus is unique as man with the infinite divine nature, and that all other men are sinful, limited and weak.

As soon as you doubt that with "why not?" you have thrown out Scriptural authority.

I am not doubting. I think you didn’t understand the exercise, most likely because I didn’t explain it properly.
I am using deliberately the same fallacious reasoning that you used (“it would be up to you to prove that Jesus cannot be God”) to ilustrate how we can end up saying all kind of absurdities, like “Prove that Enoch is not God”.

You accepted the challenge of proving that Enoch is not God, and I have shown you that, when we defend ourselves using fallacies ex silentio, we deceive ourselves thinking we are in an unassailable fortress, when in fact we are at a high risk of concluding all kind of absurdities, like the absurdity that Enoch is God.

Please review again my post #110 and your post #84 to understand the context of the exercise. I have quoted them below.

No, Dizerner. The burden proof rests on your shoulders.
Jesus said in unequivocal terms that the Only and True God, his God, is The Father. (John 17:1-3, John 20:17).
So, if anyone else claims to be God, the burden of proof belongs to the person making that claim.
Such person should prove that he/she is the God Jesus worshipped,

Imagine that I challenged you: “Enoch is God… if you don’t believe me, prove that Enoch is not God.”
Just think about it….

It would be up to you to prove that Jesus cannot be God, or that God can never be used in more than one way, and of course, you cannot.