"God became human, but not a human person." — civic

[Aeliana]

It sounds like Docetism Is being discussed here. I believe it's a good thing to know about so one isn't deceived by it.

Docetism introduced a particular distortion of the biblical view of Jesus. In the earliest days of the Christian church, there were those, usually associated with the school of Gnosticism, who believed that Jesus did not really have a human nature or a human body. They argued that He only appeared to have a physical body. This heresy was called docetism from the Greek word dokeo, which means “to seem, to think, or to appear.” Those who denied the reality of the incarnation and maintained that Jesus had but a phantom body were accused of this heresy. In a more sophisticated sense, docetism has come to apply to any failure to take seriously the real limitations of the human nature of Jesus.

What is Docetism? | GotQuestions.org

What is Docetism? Why did the early church so strongly condemn Docetism as a heresy? What did the Docetists believe?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[synergy]

It sounds like Docetism Is being discussed here. I believe it's a good thing to know about so one isn't deceived by it.

Docetism introduced a particular distortion of the biblical view of Jesus. In the earliest days of the Christian church, there were those, usually associated with the school of Gnosticism, who believed that Jesus did not really have a human nature or a human body. They argued that He only appeared to have a physical body. This heresy was called docetism from the Greek word dokeo, which means “to seem, to think, or to appear.” Those who denied the reality of the incarnation and maintained that Jesus had but a phantom body were accused of this heresy. In a more sophisticated sense, docetism has come to apply to any failure to take seriously the real limitations of the human nature of Jesus.

What is Docetism? | GotQuestions.org

What is Docetism? Why did the early church so strongly condemn Docetism as a heresy? What did the Docetists believe?

www.gotquestions.org

I can't think of anyone who believes that. Everyone I know of, Trinitarians, Arians, Unitarians, Calvinists, Nestorians, Neo-Apollinarians, Sabbathians, all believe that Jesus definitely had a real human nature and body

 

[Persevering]

I suppose it’s more difficult to believe that Jesus was fully man than it is to accept He is fully God. We read about the miracles He performed, we know He had knowledge that only God could have, and we have faith in the fact of His resurrection from the dead. Believing He is truly God isn’t a problem, but we struggle to connect with the idea that our Savior also became fully man – clothed in human flesh, with all our limitations.

In the Bible there are many verses that affirm Jesus’ humanity.

 

[civic]

I can't think of anyone who believes that. Everyone I know of, Trinitarians, Arians, Unitarians, Calvinists, Nestorians, Neo-Apollinarians, Sabbathians, all believe that Jesus definitely had a real human nature and body

The early gnostics during the time of the apostle’s combatted that doctrine. Many believe He rose a spirit and is no longer human which is also gnostic.

 

[synergy]

The early gnostics during the time of the apostle’s combatted that doctrine. Many believe He rose a spirit and is no longer human which is also gnostic.

A softer form of Gnosticism still lives on in Protestant circles. See my new thread on Heresies:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-diagnosis-and-cure-of-heresies.1269/post-48777

 

[Aeliana]

I can't think of anyone who believes that. Everyone I know of, Trinitarians, Arians, Unitarians, Calvinists, Nestorians, Neo-Apollinarians, Sabbathians, all believe that Jesus definitely had a real human nature and body

And yet the concept of the humanity of Jesus co-existing with His deity is difficult for the finite mind of man to comprehend. Nevertheless, Jesus’ nature—wholly man and wholly God—is a biblical fact. There are those who reject these biblical truths and declare that Jesus was a man, but not God.

 

[synergy]

And yet the concept of the humanity of Jesus co-existing with His deity is difficult for the finite mind of man to comprehend. Nevertheless, Jesus’ nature—wholly man and wholly God—is a biblical fact. There are those who reject these biblical truths and declare that Jesus was a man, but not God.

JWs for one but I wouldn't call them Docetists.

 

[synergy]

I suppose it’s more difficult to believe that Jesus was fully man than it is to accept He is fully God. We read about the miracles He performed, we know He had knowledge that only God could have, and we have faith in the fact of His resurrection from the dead. Believing He is truly God isn’t a problem, but we struggle to connect with the idea that our Savior also became fully man – clothed in human flesh, with all our limitations.

In the Bible there are many verses that affirm Jesus’ humanity.

You have the secular world that thinks that Jesus was just a man. They would recoil at the thought of him being God.

 

[Aeliana]

JWs for one but I wouldn't call them Docetists.

Church of Christ has ~2.3 million adherents that do not subscribe to the belief that Christ is a God-Man or both God and man. I'm sure there are more.

 

[synergy]

Church of Christ has ~2.3 million adherents that do not subscribe to the belief that Christ is a God-Man or both God and man. I'm sure there are more.

Interesting. I did not know that. I attended their Church services a while back ago and I never realized that. Can you tell me in what way they do not believe Christ is a God-man.

In retrospect, I remember CoC members being dead set against not only creeds but against putting their beliefs down on paper. That was a red flag for me as to how non-committal or unclear they were on what they actually believed.

 

[Persevering]

I like this guy's take on the topic.

One of the great mysteries of the universe is the incarnation of Jesus Christ, his complete, full, and true humanity, but also his genuine and true deity. And I suppose you would really have to be God to understand how human nature and divine nature are united in the person of Jesus Christ. But it's clear from the Bible that both of those things are true. It's obvious from the accounts in the gospels, that Jesus was a real man. He grew tired. He needed food. He suffered the physical limitations of the body and particularly he offered his body up to death, dying a bloody death on the cross.

 

[Wrangler]

I suppose it’s more difficult to believe that Jesus was fully man than it is to accept He is fully God.

That's primarily because it goes against:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Scripture that says there is one God, whose name to be known for all time is not Jesus, who is merely the servant. God name is YHWH.

By contrast, there is no verse that even says Jesus is ANY kind of god, let alone fully God. There simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

 

[Wilber]

@Persevering Nice video short and sweet.

What Happens if We Don't Believe Jesus Is Both God and Man?​

Although we do wrestle with various heresies today that stem from the ones listed below, the early church had to tackle them head-on. Many theologians struggled with the concept of Jesus being fully God and fully man, so they often would remove one of those parts from the equation (or lessen one of the parts). This led to a number of heresies.

For instance, if someone tried to diminish Jesus’ humanity they might have committed the heresy of Docetism. This heresy believed bodies to be evil and said Jesus “appeared” as a man but was not really a man. We also have other similar heresies such as Apollinarianism (Jesus had a human body, but a divine mind). Although there are others, these plagued the church in the early centuries and received condemnations.

If we remove Jesus’ humanity, we cheapen his sacrifice on the cross. If Jesus does not have a real body, or if Jesus did not experience temptation in a human sense, then why should we care about his death and resurrection? They would be illusory at best and would not fix the problem of sin.

From: “What Is the Hypostatic Union?” by Hope Bolinger)

 

[Persevering]

That's primarily because it goes against:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Scripture that says there is one God, whose name to be known for all time is not Jesus, who is merely the servant. God name is YHWH.

By contrast, there is no verse that even says Jesus is ANY kind of god, let alone fully God. There simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

New Testament passages that indicate that Jesus is God:

• Matthew 1:23. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name, Immanuel (which means, God with us). ...
• Mark 2:5-7. ...
• John 1:1. ...
• John 5:18. ...
• John 20:27-29. ...
• Philippians 2:5-7. ...
• Colossians 1:15. ...
• Colossians 2:9.

 

[makesends]

The early gnostics during the time of the apostle’s combatted that doctrine. Many believe He rose a spirit and is no longer human which is also gnostic.

Maybe proof of his deity can also be found in the fact that we are made in the image of God.

 

[Aeliana]

Interesting. I did not know that. I attended their Church services a while back ago and I never realized that. Can you tell me in what way they do not believe Christ is a God-man.

In retrospect, I remember CoC members being dead set against not only creeds but against putting their beliefs down on paper. That was a red flag for me as to how non-committal or unclear they were on what they actually believed.

Well this one kind of lets the cat out of the bag.

Iglesia ni Cristo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The church believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God[38] and the mediator between God the Father and humanity,[21] and was created by God the Father. God sanctified him to be without sin, and bestowed upon him the titles "Lord" and "Son of God". The church sees Jesus as God's highest creation, believe that he is a Man and denies the deity of Jesus.[19] Adherents profess Jesus' substitutionary role in the redemption of humankind. He is believed to have been "foreordained before the foundation of the world" and sent by God "to deal with sin". Members "are saved by Christ's blood" who died because of his "self-sacrificing love".[9][40]

INC believes that the Holy Spirit is the power of God and also not a deity, being sent by God the Father and Jesus Christ to guide God's people.[41]

 

[synergy]

Well this one kind of lets the cat out of the bag.

Iglesia ni Cristo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The church believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God[38] and the mediator between God the Father and humanity,[21] and was created by God the Father. God sanctified him to be without sin, and bestowed upon him the titles "Lord" and "Son of God". The church sees Jesus as God's highest creation, believe that he is a Man and denies the deity of Jesus.[19] Adherents profess Jesus' substitutionary role in the redemption of humankind. He is believed to have been "foreordained before the foundation of the world" and sent by God "to deal with sin". Members "are saved by Christ's blood" who died because of his "self-sacrificing love".[9][40]

INC believes that the Holy Spirit is the power of God and also not a deity, being sent by God the Father and Jesus Christ to guide God's people.[41]

Turns out we're talking about two different denominations. I was talking about the Church of Christ denomination in the USA. It's difficult keeping up with all these Protestant fractures and splinters. Thanks for the information, anyways.

Churches of Christ - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Aeliana]

Turns out we're talking about two different denominations. I was talking about the Church of Christ denomination in the USA. It's difficult keeping up with all these Protestant fractures and splinters. Thanks for the information, anyways.

Churches of Christ - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No problem, There are hundreds of variations as your link pointed out.

Variations within Churches of Christ​

While there is an identifiable mainstream within the Churches of Christ, there are also significant variations within the fellowship

 

[Olde Tymer]

~
POSIT: Jesus didn't have human blood because human blood is too impure to offer
for the sins of the world. Nope; he had God's blood.

REPLY: Jesus' genealogy is relatively unimportant to the average Gentile, whereas
very important to Jews because only David's biological posterity qualify to ascend
his throne and govern the people of Israel.

● Ps 132:11 . .The Lord has sworn in truth unto David; and He will not turn from it:
"Of the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne"

The New Testament verifies Jesus satisfies the biological requirement.

● Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch
David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on
his throne.

● Rom 1:3 . . . His son; descended from David according to the flesh

According to Lev 17:11, the life of the flesh is in the blood. Well then, in order for
Jesus to be David's bona fides paternal descendant, he had to have human blood in
his flesh due to the fact that his paternal ancestor David was human.

One of the oldest creeds in the book states that Jesus is fully God and fully Man.
Well that creed would be grossly mistaken if something other than human life was
in Jesus' blood. Plus: on numerous occasions Jesus referred to himself as "son of
Man" which, likewise, would be patently false were human life not in his blood.

FAQ: Why are there people out there trying to disconnect Jesus from the human
race?

REPLY: They mean well; but are unaware that disconnecting Jesus from the human
race disqualifies him from taking David's throne; which would remove him from any
and all lists of possible candidates for Messiah, thus helping the Devil clear a path
for the anti Christ, viz: if people dismiss the real Christ they will accept a fraud
because frauds will be all that's left for them to choose from.
_

 

[Wrangler]

One of the oldest creeds in the book states that Jesus is fully God and fully Man.

What verse states that?