5 Non-Negotiables from the Church Fathers on the Incarnation

[Pancho Frijoles]

Friend, in fact that is exactly what it proves, because Scripture is our authority.

Perhaps I can explain this better by reminding you of what you said about the wickedness of molesting children.
As you properly indicated, the Bible does not say “Thou shalt not molest children”. However, we know that molesting children is evil. How do we arrive to this conclusion?
Well, God commands “Love your neighbor”, and such commandment is not compatible with molesting children or, say, hijacking the personal information of my neighbor. So, we couldn’t say that it is OK to molest children or perform cyberattacks because the Bible does not forbid explicitly child molestation or cyberattacks.

By the same token, the fact that Jesus considers The Father to be the Only and True God is not compatible with any other claim of deity by any other person.
So, Enoch cannot be God because that would not compatible with the fact that only one Person (The Father), is God.
We don’t need to examine the credentials of Enoch or speculate for hours about Enoch’s nature. If the Father is the Only and True God, that excludes by definition any claim for the deity of Enoch.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus is the only and one/ true Lord.
Your logic leaves out the Father as Lord just as it leaves out the Son as God.

No, my friend.
The fact that Jesus is called King, Lord, Savior, Judge, Shepherd, etc does not preclude God to be King, Lord, Savior, Judge, or Savior.
Why? Because such roles can be exercised by He who was sent by God to speak and act in representation of God.

In contrast, God is a title that corresponds to One Single Person who is the source of the authority to perform all the roles above.

Please notice that while Jesus is called King, He is also called Prince.
While Jesus is called Lord, He is also called Servant.
While Jesus is called Son of God, He is also called Man.

In contrast, God is called King, but never Prince.
God is called Lord, but never Servant.
God is called God, but never Man.

 

[101G]

Greeting, @Pancho Frijoles, and @Dizerner.
Enoch Died the first death, as did Elijah. for Enoch clearly, read Hebrews chapter 11 starting at verse 5 unto verse 13 and see what happen to Enoch.
and Elijah, whic heaven was he taken up to? the third heaven or the first heaven?
Now

In contrast, God is a title that corresponds to One Single Person who is the source of the authority to perform all the roles above

Agreed, God is a single person. but is not JESUS that single PERSON? note the scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

and is not the ARM of God the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal Last, the Son identified in Isaiah chapter 53? so how can God's ... "OWN ARN" be a separate person?

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus is the only and one/ true Lord.
Your logic leaves out the Father as Lord just as it leaves out the Son as God.

No, my friend.
The fact that Jesus is called King, Lord, Savior, Judge, Shepherd, etc does not preclude God to be King, Lord, Savior, Judge, or Savior.
Why? Because such roles can be exercised by He who was sent by God to speak and act in representation of God.

In contrast, God is a title that corresponds to One Single Person who is the source of the authority to perform all the roles above (well, at least in the monotheistic perspective. Ancient Greeks and pantheists would disagree with such statement). Any attribute and role of Christ, including his lordship, is given by God. In contrast, God does not get his lordship from anyone.


Please notice that while Jesus is called King, He is also called Prince.
While Jesus is called Lord, He is also called Servant.
While Jesus is called Son of God, He is also called Man.

In contrast, God is called King, but never Prince.
God is called Lord, but never Servant.
God is called God, but never Man.

 

[101G]

No, my friend.
The fact that Jesus is called King, Lord, Savior, Judge, Shepherd, etc does not preclude God to be King, Lord, Savior, Judge, or Savior.
Why? Because such roles can be exercised by He who was sent by God to speak and act in representation of God.

my friend, you speak of ROLES. may 101G ask, is this ONE person in ROLE play or One Person in "Diversity?". scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

while on EARTH, is flesh and bone with blood, he JESUS, was in Heaven AT THE SAME TIME. WAS THIS ROLE PLAY OF ONE PERSON? yes or No.

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Agreed, God is a single person. but is not JESUS that single PERSON?

I highly value that some Christians like you think in God as a single person, and think in Jesus in terms of a Manifestation or Expression of that single Person. All my respect to your belief, @101G. Deep, deep respect.
Modalism could have been a wonderful alternative in the development of Christology.

note the scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

and is not the ARM of God the Lord Jesus, the Ordinal Last, the Son identified in Isaiah chapter 53? so how can God's ... "OWN ARN" be a separate person?

“My own arm” is a metaphor, since God has no arms. It refers to the ability to execute God’s will.
Kings executed actions through the “arms” of their generals, which used those “arms” to wield a sword.

I don’t know if in English you do the same thing that in Spanish, my language, but in Spanish a leader refers to an important subordinate as “my right arm” to mean that such subordinate is instrumental in executing his plans or orders.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

my friend, you speak of ROLES. may 101G ask, is this ONE person in ROLE play or One Person in "Diversity?". scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

while on EARTH, is flesh and bone with blood, he JESUS, was in Heaven AT THE SAME TIME. WAS THIS ROLE PLAY OF ONE PERSON? yes or No.

101G.

For all practical purposes that deal with our daily life, You are right.

Theologically speaking, I beg to differ, as Jesus spoke about God as a different person and interacted with Him as a different person.
In the apostolic epistles, God and Jesus are treated over and over as different persons.
So, I disagree with you, but I would not find our disagreement relevant at all.

Modalism and the Bahai Faith are two different shades of the same color. The color is the Oneness of God.
Bahá’u’lláh said that if Jesus had called himself God, He would have spoken the truth, because Jesus is the Perfect Mirror in which the Sun of God is reflected. So, from our perspective, looking at the sun reflected in the mirror is like looking at the sun directly (“He who has seen me has seen the Father”)
Praise be to God, the One and Only, the Unique, the Unfathomable Essence of existence! Praise be to Christ, His Manifestation, forever and ever!

 

[101G]

I highly value the intention of some Christians like you to think in God as a single person, and to think in Jesus in terms of a Manifestation or Expression of that single Person. All my respect to your belief, @101G.

the same to you.

I don’t know if in English you do the same thing that in Spanish, my language, but in Spanish a leader refers to an important subordinate asJohn 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

thank you .... you hit the nail on the HEAD, "a leader refers to an important subordinate as John 3:13". HOLD THAT THOUGHT, and go with 101G to the book of 2 Chronicles chapter 32. Sennacherib king of Assyria invaded Judah, and who or what was with him, let the bible tell us. 2 Chronicles 32:7 "Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is with him: for there be more with us than with him:" 2 Chronicles 32:8 "With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah." an ARM of Flesh, this was king Sennacherib .... POWER, his Fighting men, his army. this POWER was in FLESH. God who was in Flesh..... his "OWN ARM" is his ... POWER in Flesh. this answer the subordination question. for no army just jump up one it's own and start fighting another country ..... unless it is AUTHORIZED to fight. see, this is why the Lord Jesus as his OWN ARM, the Head directs the BODY, and on earth in flesh, he was the ONLY BODY of God/Christ on earth to carry out God's/His OWN WILL. this is why the Lord Jesus/the ARM, or ARMY of God was in subjection, and why he prayed, "NOT MY WILL BUT YOUR WILL". as with any army it is the Will of the one who gives AUTHORIZATION to fight. KNOWING this example, we now can understand his, the Lord Jesus subordination. see how it's so easy if one just follow the Spirit who will guide us in all truth. see, by understanding the term "ARM" we now can answer many and all of these types question questioning his subornation.

and understanding the ECHAD of God in Ordinations.... now we can understand how and why he was ON EARTH in flesh, concrete/the OBJECTIVE, Son the OFFSPRING/title Lord. , AND AT THE SAME TIME, in Heaven, Spirit, abstract/the SUBJECTIVE, Father the ROOT/Title LORD. this is clear as day. Root Offspring.... First and Last. Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

OFFSPRING: G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

KIN as in KINsman REDEEMER, fo God himself ... "SHARED HIMSELF EQUALLY" in flesh. this is not that hard to understand.

Diversity....... ONE GOD..... One Person..... Shared Equally.

101G.

 

[101G]

For all practical purposes that deal with our daily life, You are right.

Theologically speaking, I beg to differ, as Jesus spoke about God as a different person and interacted with Him as a different person.
In the apostolic epistles, God and Jesus are treated over and over as different persons.
So, I disagree with you, but I would not find our disagreement relevant at all.

Modalism and the Bahai Faith are two different shades of the same color. The color is the Oneness of God.
Bahá’u’lláh said that if Jesus had called himself God, He would have spoken the truth, because Jesus is the Perfect Mirror in which the Sun of God is reflected. So, from our perspective, looking at the sun reflected in the mirror is like looking at the sun directly (“He who has seen me has seen the Father”)
Praise be to God, the One and Only, the Unique, the Unfathomable Essence of existence! Praise be to Christ, His Manifestation, forever and ever!

one verse concerning "Coming by God". Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."
TWO QUESTION, A. Who came? B. Who Save us?

also see the post above....

• #148

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God who was in Flesh..... his "OWN ARM" is his ... POWER in Flesh. this answer the subordination question. for no army just jump up one it's own and start fighting another country ..... unless it is AUTHORIZED to fight. see, this is why the Lord Jesus as his OWN ARM, the Head directs the BODY, and on earth in flesh, he was the ONLY BODY of God/Christ on earth to carry out God's/His OWN WILL. this is why the Lord Jesus/the ARM, or ARMY of God was in subjection, and why he prayed, "NOT MY WILL BUT YOUR WILL". as with any army it is the Will of the one who gives AUTHORIZATION to fight. KNOWING this example, we now can understand his, the Lord Jesus subordination. see how it's so easy if one just follow the Spirit who will guide us in all truth. see, by understanding the term "ARM" we now can answer many and all of these types question questioning his subornation.

Beautiful explanation.
Certainly, We tend to read the same text from different perspectives: for some things you take as literal what I take as allegorical, and for other things I take as literal what you take s allegorical. So we cannot be 100% aligned… but why should we expect that?
However, I agree with you in the fundamentals. Jesus was in subordination to God as an arm is in subordination to the head.
Actually, Paul refers to God as the head of Christ.

In this sense, Jesus was the power of God in the flesh, to rescue us from the dominion of the flesh.

 

[101G]

In this sense, Jesus was the power of God in the flesh, to rescue us from the dominion of the flesh.

Agreed, for Christ is the POWER of God in flesh. 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

let's agree or not. if Christ/God's own ARM, is he not God? remember there is no ... "one" beside him... God.

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Diversity....... ONE GOD..... One Person..... Shared Equally.

As a Bahá’í, I have a natural sympathy for any theological framework that encourages men to love and serve One Eternal, Personal, Almighty God. We Baha’is do not go around preaching “Jesus is not God”. We rather proclaim “God is One”.
So, if a Christian like you sees God and experiences the One and True God through the contemplation of Jesus’ life and love, I feel very happy.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Agreed, for Christ is the POWER of God in flesh. 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God."

let's agree or not. if Christ/God's own ARM, is he not God? remember there is no ... "one" beside him... God.

Let me answer you with the analogy of the body used by Paul (1 Cor 11:3)
But I would have you know that the head of the woman is the man, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.

The husband, Paul says, is the head of the wife.
Is Paul saying that the wife is the husband? No.
Is Paul saying that the wife is subordinate to the husband? Yes.
Is Paul saying that husband and wife love each other as if they were one body? Yes.

God, Paul says, is the head of Christ.
Is Paul saying that Christ is God? No.
Is Paul saying that Christ is subordinate to God? Yes.
Is Paul saying that God and Christ love each other as if they were one body? Yes.

 

[101G]

Let me answer you with the analogy of the body used by Paul (1 Cor 11:3)
But I would have you know that the head of the woman is the man, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.

The husband, Paul says, is the head of the wife.
Is Paul saying that the wife is the husband? No.
Is Paul saying that the wife is subordinate to the husband? Yes.
Is Paul saying that husband and wife love each other as if they were one body? Yes.

God, Paul says, is the head of Christ.
Is Paul saying that Christ is God? No.
Is Paul saying that Christ is subordinate to God? Yes.
Is Paul saying that God and Christ love each other as if they were one body? Yes.

thanks for the reply. but did you notice ..... No personal names...... God is the Head of Christ, not the HEAD of JESUS..... see it, for not all are married..... so, why not say the Head of Jesus is ????? for there is no one who is the Head of JESUS......

one day many will learn..... be blessed my brother.

101G.