The "hearing" game that Calvinists play
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Non-sequitur.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Scoffing truth, its sad
God gives the abilty/causes to believe, its given by grace Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
This can read w/o any harm " For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ to believe on him,but also to suffer for his sake
Nothing about you have the ability to choose, thats your concoction
brightfame52
Well-known member
More scoffing
civic
Well-known member
Truth you had no real choice you were saved unwillingly. Gid made you choose him.
brightfame52
Well-known member
More scoffing
So with that ability to believe, can a person reject that belief or is he just a puppet?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
What a sophomoric question. People are not puppets or robots if God enables them to believe, nor are they robots or puppets if God chooses not to enable them to believe.
Joseph said, "You MEANT IT for evil, but God MEANT IT for good." This clearly says Joseph's brothers did what they did WILLINGLY, not as puppets. The fact that God also meant it to happen doesn't mean God forced them like robots.
Yes, Joseph's statement elicits cognitive dissonance, but it's still true whether or not you grasp it. To accept it, you must TRUST GOD, and know that God's ways are so far above our ways that we cannot understand them. I seriously question whether or not a person has true faith (trusting God) if they can't accept things like this.
I'm not surprised that you evaded my question and went into a tangential rant that does not address my question. This is typical of Calvinists.
The subject of discussion is man's choice, not God's choice. I see you have problems focusing on the actual subject discussed.
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Rockson
Well-known member
Two things you're leaving out.
1) Anyone who does believe you really believe God ordained them to do so. There's your puppet and robot aspect.
And (2) if God has used irresistible grace well there's your puppet and robot way of thinking as well.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
No, you have to rewrite scripture so that Joseph says, "God made you do it for evil, but God meant it for good." That's not what Joseph said, though. He said his brothers MEANT IT -- that is, did it of their own will -- for evil. But God meant for it to happen for good. There are no robots or puppets in that statement.
So they did it of their own free will right?
brightfame52
Well-known member
God gives the abilty/causes to believe, its given by grace Phil 1:29
I know that. You're not answering my question. Let me rephrase it. Given Phil 1:29, can a person reject that belief?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Are you really asking me if a person whom God causes to believe in Christ, can the person reject it ? NO
Rockson
Well-known member
That's not what Calvinists believe though. Your paradigm has it God ordained every thought a person has in other words you would believe God put hate into Josephs brothers to compel them to do what they did.
And Tom asked a good question. You said above they did it of their will. So do you acknowledge therefore that man has FREE WILL?
So then you are talking about impeccable believers from that point on. Show me even one person like that. Otherwise it is obvious to everyone, except for Calvinists living in their alternate universe, that belief can be rejected.
Rockson
Well-known member
God just gives the ability? That's NOT what you believe! You believe God imposes upon one believing through an action your call IRRESITIBLE. Now if it's absolutely irresistible there's your robot, puppet reality.
I agree. Reality is totally against IG (Irresistible Grace). Only in an alternate universe is IG true.
civic
Well-known member
God doen't cause anyone to believe- faith is up to man, man must believe on the Lord to be saved.
see the bible in Romans 10:8-13. Then read Jesus teaching He said 13 times it’s their faith that saved them and not the faith Gid gave them which you reject and say the opposite of what Jesus said and taught which is the TRUTH.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
And Paul agrees below with Jesus and me.
“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ….” (Romans 5:1)
“So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.” (Galatians 3:24)
“And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.” (Romans 4:11)
“For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”” (Romans 4:3) [see also Genesis 15:6, Galatians 3:6, James 2:23]
So faith is synonymous with belief in Christ.
And its up to man to believe, a requirement. See below- one must believe to be saved !
“For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” (Romans 10:9-10)
conclusion: Faith is required by God and man must believe to be saved- its mans responsibility. And faith is not a work as demonstrated above from scripture.
Oh the games Calvinists play with scripture to support the errant beliefs as demonstrated above.
hope this helps !!!
