The "hearing" game that Calvinists play
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
Amen, God has decided to show mercy on some sinners, and no mercy on some sinners Ex 34:7
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation
brightfame52
Well-known member
If God owes all mankind grace since He gives it to only some, you make Grace an obligation, that's not Grace. Does God owe Mercy to all mankind ?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
God owes nothing to any man. You're the one requiring Grace for yourself. Not me.
Salvation is by Grace and you believe you were chosen before the foundation of the world, then YOU are requiring that God extend Grace to you.
It is maddening to deal with things like this with you because you have no systematic view of theology. You're just making it up as you go.....
Here. Learn theology 101.....
If you going to claim that God works everything according to "the good pleasure of His will" then you must start a hierarchy of systematic thought that starts with YOU.
1. God chose @brightfame52 before the foundation of the world. (you rank at the TOP of God's choices and His good pleasure". You must feel really important. I know you do.
2. God then is required to extend Grace to you. (which creates/establishes merit of Grace) for @brightfame52
3. God then must choose the means to accomplish His will. God must exert POWER to accomplish His will. Which makes the choice of Christ.... subservient to @brightfame52
This is basic systematic theology 101. Not that it will mean anything to you. You'll just deny it and repeat yourself again.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Then quit requiring mercy for yourself while denying it to those just like you.
God is not a fool. Someone has to merit the Benevolence of God. God is kind and loving but such requirements of merit only come from those worthy. God is self satisfying and self pleasing. There has never been but One Person that merited the favor of God.
It is Jesus Christ. Self satisfying. God pleasing Himself in Jesus Christ.
Your system creates a subservient duty of Christ to YOU.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Wow. That's an impressive set of mental gymnastics. If someone gives you a gift, then they are required to give you that gift because you received it.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I know your answer but I"m going to ask it anyway to prove a point here.... because that is what we are doing. We are "reasoning" the Scriptures.
When Paul wrote "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" it wasn't within the context of the conversation we are having.
So tell me. Why did God show you mercy when there are people exactly like you that God didn't show mercy?
Go ahead and say it. Say it.... "I don't know".....
It must have been the "Good pleasure of His will"....... Tell me the same thing I've heard my entire adult life.
You're just like they are. You insist that you know something and then pretend you don't know something when it fits your need..... Just like most anyone else in this world.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
BTW..... You don't believe that you are the one that recieved it. You believe God received it for you.
brightfame52
Well-known member
If God owes all mankind grace since He gives it to only some, you make Grace an obligation, that's not Grace. Does God owe Mercy to all mankind ?
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah............ You're something else.....
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Don't presume to tell me what I believe. You wouldn't understand it even if I told you.
civic
Well-known member
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Can you give us a try ?.
I know you don't believe everything Calvin taught.
Sure. Take anything that is difficult to believe. Imagine a time before wireless radio, and you tell someone that I can hook up this thingy to an antenna and someone 2,000 miles away will be able to hear me because of electromagnetic waves that travel through the air, bounce off a section of the sky, and come down to that location 2,000 miles away. You know it's true now, but that person would be incredulous until I demonstrated it to be true beyond the shadow of a doubt. I didn't believe for that person. I simply showed him truth that his eyes could see for himself.
Or imagine telling one blind man what an elephant looks like. Not multiple blind men who can feel around, just one. Whatever he conjures in his mind is not going to look like an elephant. Now give that man sight. He sees the elephant and has no choice but to believe it looks like that. He can see it for himself.
Now think of how absurd the gospel is to anyone in the flesh. I know some of you say it's not absurd, but that's because you already believe it. Tell the Gospel to a natural man and ask what he thinks. It was total nonsense to me as a natural man.
18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
The word may be there for me to read (near and in your mouth), but I don't believe it because it is spiritually discerned, and I have the spirit of a natural man.
I might add telling a man in the flesh that there's a God who created the earth in 6 24-hour days. As an unsaved person in the flesh, I thought it was one of the most absurd fairy tales anyone could invent.
What does God do? He opens the eyes, ears, and understanding to see and know the truth. The truth was there all along, but I couldn't see it because I was a natural man, blind in the flesh. God didn't zap belief in me. God didn't believe for me. He gave me the Holy Spirit, and now being born from above, when He revealed the truth to me I had no choice but to believe it, because I could plainly see that it's the truth. Having been brainwashed all my life, it took time and a lot of Bible reading to begin to grasp deeper truths, but the saving truth was impossible to deny once I had eyes to see.
civic
Well-known member
I would agree with most everything you said up until placing regeneration before faith. Other than that we agree.
God can open ones eyes to see with our regenerating them through His mercy/grace. The Holy Spirit can convict the unbeliever of their sin prior to regeneration. This is where we part ways in the order salutis.
civic
Well-known member
@The Rogue Tomato just as an FYI I like you and nothing I say against what you believe is personal in any way. I just want to go on record and make that known. You are a level headed guy and I appreciate what you say here. Even when I was on ignore I read and appreciated your posts. I look at this as iron sharpening iron. We are brothers in Christ and I don't believe our differences are salvific in any way, shape of form. I use to say this to the non calvinists for years when I was a Calvinist.
hope this helps !!!
hope this helps !!!
I can verify that
civic
Well-known member
Thanks brother we had our battles for years in the past and I'm embarrassed at how I treated you back then when I was a calvinist.( FYI many calvinists are not like that ) I saved many of our posts/interactions from the other forum as a reminder of how I once was and treated people. I was like that with you, JDS and many others to my shame.
Shoot if @praise_yeshua would of gone on the Calvin/Arminian forum we probably would not of been friends but he and I battled the non trinitarians for years on the other forum and that's where we had a kindred spirit.
Nah forget about it. You were ok and i always liked you
civic
Well-known member
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
you were a thorn in my flesh back then
I heard it said once that the thorn in Paul's flesh was his wife. I don't believe that, but it was a great joke.
