MTMattie
Active member
Knowing you will never turn a Trinitarian away from their beliefs, why are you trying so hard?
The written word you use was written not by7 a God fearing person.
The Father
- Thread starter Keiw1
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The written word you use was written not by7 a God fearing person.
twisting
Then show us all how there is one God, but God has a God-John 20:17, Rev 3:12
Do you mean the translators of the NWT= the only ones with love and respect for Gods will on the matter of his name in his translation by his will? Or the translators who keep Gods name out by satans will? Tell us which ones are God fearing by example?
You failed to address anything
That is funny as the angel of the lord is called God and YHWH
Genesis 31:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.
Referencing
Genesis 28:18–22 (KJV 1900) — 18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Beth-el: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. 20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21 So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: 22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
MTMattie
Active member
And you are one flesh with your wife, but she has a master..... or was directed to by God.
MTMattie
Active member
As I see it , Their problem is that they cannot understand how the "spirit" Word could become a flash and blood human being actually able to bleed real blood. So in their minds He could not possibly be God.
I cannot help but wonder what kind of faith it is that they have, if any.
MTMattie
Active member
I mean anyone who twists a meaning of any verse to influence another.
Look at Colossians 2:9
In your NWT....
9 because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.
Your translator added to the bible. They added quality.
vs. Greek
hoti en autō katoikei pan to plērōma
9 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα
For in Him dwells all the fullness
tēs Theotētos sōmatikōs
τῆς Θεότητος σωματικῶς ;
of the Deity bodily
Theotetos: Meaning at Colossians 2:9
THEOTETOS: MEANING AT COLOSSIANS 2:9 There really are no translational difficulties presented by Colossians 2:9. There are no textual variants to worry about,www.aomin.org
Theotetos: Meaning at Colossians 2:9
Meaning:
THEOTETOS: MEANING AT COLOSSIANS 2:9
There really are no translational difficulties presented by Colossians 2:9. There are no textual variants to worry about, and the meanings of the various words are pretty clear. However, two of the words, theotetos and somatikos do need further elaboration.
The Greek of the passage reads as follows:
hoti en auto katoikei pan to pleroma tes theotetos somatikos,
The clause opens with the idea of purpose, hoti, forming the basis of Paul’s warning in verse 8. The rest of the phrase is so very expressive in the Greek language that a brief look at it is certainly in order.
The first consideration has to do with the phrase en auto katoikei. “In Him is dwelling” is the literal translation. The verb, katoikei, is in the present indicative active third person singular. One can easily see a gnomic present, but a regular descriptive present is also quite possible. If one were to take this as a regular present, Paul would be referring to the glorified resurrection body of the Lord Jesus as the place of residence of the “fullness of Deity.”This seems the best sense in light of the context of a polemic against gnosticism.
Katoikei is itself descriptive in meaning. Kenneth Wuest wrote:
The compound verb used of the permanent residents of a town as compared with the transient community. The verb is in the present tense, showing durative action. The translation reads: “Because in Him there is continuously and permanently at home all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily fashion.”1
Hence, the fact of the indwelling of Deity in Christ is not as an alien presence, but as an inhabitant in his own home.
The phrase pan to pleroma has already been discussed in the text of this work. Its significance in combating gnosticism is of great importance in understanding this passage.
Tes theotetos truly is the central word of this verse. The meaning as rendered by the New American Standard Bible seems to be the best: Deity. Most would be familiar with the King James rendering, “Godhead,” though the meaning of this word is more obscure than that of “Deity.”
The Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker lexicon renders the word “deity, divinity, used as an abstract noun for theos.”2 Thayer’s lexicon says, “deity, i.e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9.” Thayer is here giving us Grimm’s words. However, he then goes on to provide some important information on his own, ”[SYN. theotes, theiotes: theot. deity differs from theiot. divinity, as essence differs from quality or attribute;”]3 This bit of information is vital. The word under consideration here, theotes, is not the same word as is found at Romans 1:20, theiotes. This difference is striking and purposeful. One cannot translate theotes as a simple quality or attribute – it refers instead to the actual essence of deity, not simply to its attributes. The most extensive passage on this important idea is found in Trench’s Synonyms of the New Testament:
…yet they (theiotes and theotes) must not be regarded as identical in meaning, nor even as two different forms of the same word, which in process of time have separated off from one another, and acquired different shades of significance. On the contrary, there is a real distinction between them, and one which grounds itself on their different derivations; theotes being from theos, and theiotes, not from to theion, which is nearly though not quite equivalent to theos, but from the adjective theios…But in the second passage (Colossians 2:9) St. Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up his person for a season and with a splendour not his own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the Apostle “uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son;…4
The reader is encouraged to read all of Trench’s presentation.
Kenneth Wuest expanded on this idea in discussing the significance of theotes at Colossians 2:9:
The Greek is very strong here. One could translate, “For in Him corporeally there is permanently at home all the fulness of the Godhead.” That is, in our Lord Jesus in His incarnation and in the permanent possession of His human body now glorified, there resides by nature and permanently the fullness of the Godhead. The word “Godhead” is from our second word theotes. The word expresses Godhead in the absolute sense. It is not merely divine attributes that are in mind now, but the possession of the essence of deity in an absolute sense. The Greek Fathers never use theiotes but always theotes as alone adequately expressing the essential Godhead of the three several Persons in the Holy Trinity. The Latin Christian writers were not satisfied with divinitas which was in common use, but coined the word deitas as the only adequate representative of the Greek word theotes.5
The concept here put forth is striking. It is impossible to conceive of a higher view of Christ. This statement, however, is not inconsistent with Paul’s overall theology. Benjamin B. Warfield, while discussing Paul’s conception of Christ, wrote:
…we are told not only that (naturally) in Him all the fullness dwells (Colossians 1:19), but, with complete
explication, that “all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in him bodily” (Colossians 2:9); that is to say, the very Deity of God, that which makes God God, in all its completeness, has its permanent home in Our Lord, and that in a “bodily fashion,” that is, it is in Him clothed with a body. He who looks upon Jesus Christ sees, no doubt, a body and a man; but as he sees the man clothed with the body, so he sees God Himself, in all the fullness of His Deity, clothed with the humanity.6
There is little need to further elaborate on the obvious meaning of theotetos. Let it suffice to say that such scholars as Alford,7 Nicoll,8 and A. T. Robertson9 all view it in similar manner. Even a cursory glance at how some of the major translations render the word bear this out:
RSV: For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily…
NIV: For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form…
NEB: For it is in Christ that the complete being of the Godhead dwells embodied…
Barclay: For it is in Christ that godhead in all its completeness dwells in bodily form.
Amplified: For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead), continues to dwell in bodily form – giving complete expression of the divine nature.
What does all of this relate to us today? Can Paul’s attack on an ancient heresy called gnosticism have any relevance now? It certainly can, and it most assuredly does! Most of the modern heresies find their roots in the Church’s ancient foes (“So, there is nothing new under the sun.” Eccl. 1:9). Arianism and gnosticism is still rampant today. Paul’s sharp words in laying down the standard by which to test all teaching must be clung to with never weakening resolve today as never before! Does a certain group or teacher admit and proclaim that all the fullness of Deity dwells in Christ Jesus bodily? If they do not, they are placed by Paul right alongside “philosophy and empty deception.”10 This passage continues to speak today, and it will throughout eternity. May it shed its bright light on the Church until Jesus comes again!
Footnotes:
1. Wuest, Word Studies, vol. 1., “Ephesians and Colossians,” p. 201. See also, James Hope Moulton, George Milligan, The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1930) p. 338.
2. Bauer, Greek-English Lexicon, 2nd ed., p. 358.
3. Thayer, The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, p. 288.
4. Richard C. Trench, Synonyms of the New Testament, (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1953), pp. 7-8. See also the discussion by Bishop Lightfoot, Colossians, pp. 181-182.
5. Wuest, Word Studies, vol. 3, “Treasures from the Greek New Testament,” pp. 75-76.
6. Benjamin B. Warfield, The Works of Benjamin B. Warfield, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1981), vol 2:184.
7. Alford, New Testament for English Readers, vol. 3:1296.
8. Nicoll, Expositor’s Greek Testament, vol. 3:523.
9. Robertson, Word Pictures, vol. 4:491.
10. Another “philosophy of men” that must be guarded against is the idea of modalism – the teaching that Jesus is the Father, the Father is Jesus, Jesus is the Spirit – frequently called “Jesus Only” teaching. The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that there are three separate Persons who share the one Being that is God. The doctrine of the Trinity states strenuously that God’s Being cannot be divided – each of the three Persons shares fully and completely in the theotetos of God – the Deity of God. This is seen above in the discussion of Colossians 2:9 – Jesus does not simply have 1/3 of God’s Being, but shares fully in the Being of God. Many modalists use this passage to attempt to substantiate their non – Christian teaching. A brief glance at Colossians 1:3 should be sufficient to lay this heresy to rest!
Their Faith is inwhat they are told
MTMattie
Active member
Tis a shame.
My faith has radically changed in a way since I learned that I do not agree with everything that proceeds out of my pastor's mouth.
At time can be amusing when I want to say to him..... But what about.?.. but then keep quiet.
Just because a man (person) has the credentials to stand behind a pulpit does not mean he wont err.
I was at a Christmas Eve early (childrens) service in the 90s. A woman called the kids to the steps in front of the sanctuary to tell the Christmas story
from the Wisemen's view. And in telling things she got to where she was explaining though these people came from very far away, it was because their camels had the ability to travel great distances in a single night that made it possible for the Wisemen to get to the baby Jesus that night.
I almost got up and walk out at that moment...
That minister was sitting right above her and acted like she was correct.
So I write a letter to him the next week and told him flat out since the Wisemen never got to the manger, yada yada how could he sit there and permit her to instruct the children... who will never forget what they were told in church about it.
I got a reply...
Yes, he knew the Wisemen never saw Jesus but he felt that (drum roll please).... he felt that it best not to confuse the people.
And I found out 15 years later from a woman ( member of same church) that she always had believed they were at the manger herself.
I gave her a copy of a paper I had written explaining things from a biblical view... but she was more distanced from me after that.
So I say, when it comes from clergy, or teachers... you need multiple sources to check things out.
As we are told in NAS 2 Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
KJV says 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
God is YHVH(Jehovah) no angel is= reality. Every bible scholar on earth will agree with me, not your twisting.
Psalm 45:7=before earth--John 20:17= on earth--Rev 3:12--Back in heaven.
Jesus is Gods image. An image is NEVER the real McCoy.
If he is God bodily, then why did God have to do all the powerful works Jesus did on earth THROUGH Jesus? Acts 2:22)
e v e
Well-known member
God's Feminine Spirit is there in genesis 1 - ruach.
Christ is also there in genesis 1...
God's son and His spirit are His male and feminine attributes ... we were made Their image in eden, before we lost that because of adam after the fall. the 144k will be restored at rapture to their attributes, the birthright, and will serve God.
In the filioque controversy the war was about turning God into the pagan oneness concept by altering the real version of trinity, where God's attributes are in reality His hands, doing His Will. Augustine, working for the vatican and doing its evil, was in charge of the canon, many councils, theology --- so he did a lot of damage. Every council is void and the canon augustine codified, wrong. Modern christianity comes right out of augustine and adopted plato's oneness concept. Do they know this? I bet some do but many are too bullied to consider.
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Before earth
John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
On earth
John 20:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
In heaven
2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Sorry you failed to address the scripture
That is funny as the angel of the lord is called God and YHWH
Genesis 31:11–13 (KJV 1900) — 11 And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. 13 I am the God of Beth-el, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.
Referencing
Genesis 28:18–22 (KJV 1900) — 18 And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Beth-el: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. 20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, 21 So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: 22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
You have no idea what bible scholars think
MTMattie
Active member
Jesus became man for a specific reason.
Since you do not know what that reason is... I am NOT going to educate you.
But suffice it to say that Jesus had to become a bleeding human being or else you along with the rest of us would be headed straight to hell.
It is all in Gods blueprint for humanity.
Jesus' deity side had to step briefly aside for 30 odd years for the plan to materialize and be fulfilled.
Not everyone born was ever meant to be saved. (another subject for another thread)
You cannot comprehend anything about the true Christian religion or even comprehend that the name comes from Jesus "the Christ"
You would make a find Pharisee in training.
Bump for @Keiw1
