The Father

[Keiw1]

Here are the undeniable facts according to Jesus. Deceivers say otherwise.

1- Who's voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?
2-Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?
3- Jesus said it was not the Father

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some of the theophanies are found in these passages:

1. Genesis 12:7-9 – The Lord appeared to Abraham on his arrival in the land God had promised to him and his descendants.

2. Genesis 18:1-33 – One day, Abraham had some visitors: two angels and God Himself. He invited them to come to his home, and he and Sarah entertained them. Many commentators believe this could also be a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

3. Genesis 32:22-30 – Jacob wrestled with what appeared to be a man, but was actually God (vv. 28-30). This may also have been a Christophany.

4. Exodus 3:2 - 4:17 – God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush, telling him exactly what He wanted him to do.

5. Exodus 24:9-11 – God appeared to Moses with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders.

6. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 – God appeared to Moses and Joshua in the transfer of leadership to Joshua.

7. Job 38–42 – God answered Job out of the tempest and spoke at great length in answer to Job’s questions.

Frequently, the term “glory of the Lord” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16-18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words “the Lord came down,” as in Genesis 11:5; Exodus 34:5; Numbers 11:25; and 12:5.

Some Bible commentators believe that whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7-14; Genesis 22:11-18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. Other commentators believe these were in fact angelophanies, or appearances of angels. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, where God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23). got?

conclusion: it was not the Father who was seen and heard in the O.T but it was the Son who is called YHWH. We clearly see this is the case with Isaiah as John tells us it was the Son whom was seen and heard by Isaiah, not the Father.

In Isaiah 6:1–13, Isaiah has a vision of “the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne” (verse 1). There are seraphim present, and even they cover their faces in God’s presence (verse 2). Isaiah’s immediate reaction is fear due to his sin: “Woe to me!” he cries. “I am ruined! . . . My eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty” (verse 5). (cf. John 12:41). Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

hope this helps !!!

A vision is not the real thing.
Everything Jesus did and taught was Gods will, that is how God was with us. Not bodily.

 

[Keiw1]

Um the angel of the Lord was worshipped and called Jehovah



Genesis 31:11–13 (LEB) — 11 Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Lift up your eyes and see—all the rams mounting the flock are streaked, speckled, and dappled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel where you anointed a stone pillar, where you made a vow to me. Now get up, go out from this land and return to the land of your birth.’ ”

referencing

Genesis 28:18–22 (LEB) — 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”

and

Genesis 35:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Beth-el; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

the word of God is called Yahweh

Genesis 15:1–8 (LEB) — 1 After these things the word of Yahweh came to Abram in a vision, saying: “Do not be afraid, Abram; I am your shield, and your reward shall be very great.” 2 Then Abram said, “O Yahweh, my Lord, what will you give me? I continue to be childless, and my heir is Eliezer of Damascus.” 3 And Abram said, “Look, you have not given me a descendant, and here, a member of my household is my heir.” 4 And behold, the word of Yahweh came to him saying, “This person will not be your heir, but your own son will be your heir.” 5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward the heavens and count the stars if you are able to count them.” And he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 And he believed in Yahweh, and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. 7 And he said to him, “I am Yahweh, who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give this land to you, to possess it.” 8 And he said, “O Yahweh God, how shall I know that I will possess it?”

you are just twisting what is said--An angel of God is not God.

 

[TomL]

you are just twisting what is said--An angel of God is not God.

You are denying scripture

Even your own scriptures

(NWT)Gen 31:11 Then the angel of the [true] God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob!' to which I said, 'Here I am.'
Gen 31:12 And he continued, 'Raise your eyes, please, and see all the he-goats springing upon the flock are striped, speckled and spotty, for I have seen all that La'ban is doing to you.
Gen 31:13 I am the [true] God of Beth'el, where you anointed a pillar and where you vowed a vow to me. Now get up, go out of this land and return to the land of your birth.'"


The angel (messenger) of the true God is truely God

referencing

(NWT)Gen 28:18 So Jacob got up early in the morning and took the stone that was there as his head supporter and he set it up as a pillar and poured oil on the top of it.
Gen 28:19 Further, he called the name of that place Beth'el; but the fact is, Luz was the city's name formerly.
Gen 28:20 And Jacob went on to vow a vow, saying: "If God will continue with me and will certainly keep me on this way on which I am going and will certainly give me bread to eat and garments to wear
Gen 28:21 and I shall certainly return in peace to the house of my father, then Jehovah will have proved to be my God.
Gen 28:22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar will become a house of God, and as for everything that you will give me I shall without fail give the tenth of it to you."

and Jehovah

(NWT)Gen 35:1 After that God said to Jacob: "Rise, go up to Beth'el and dwell there, and make an altar there to the [true] God who appeared to you when you were running away from E'sau your brother."
Gen 35:2 Then Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him: "Put away the foreign gods that are in the midst of YOU and cleanse yourselves and change YOUR mantles,
Gen 35:3 and let us rise and go up to Beth'el. And there I shall make an altar to the [true] God who answered me in the day of my distress in that he proved to be with me in the way that I have gone."

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of Jehovah came to A'bram in a vision, saying: "Do not fear, A'bram. I am a shield for you. Your reward will be very great."
Gen 15:2 At this A'bram said: "Sovereign Lord Jehovah, what will you give me, seeing that I am going childless and the one who will possess my house is a man of Damascus, E·li·e'zer?"
Gen 15:3 And A'bram added: "Look! You have given me no seed, and, look! a son of my household is succeeding me as heir."
Gen 15:4 But, look! the word of Jehovah to him was in these words: "This man will not succeed you as heir, but one who will come out of your own inward parts will succeed you as heir."
Gen 15:5 He now brought him outside and said: "Look up, please, to the heavens and count the stars, if you are possibly able to count them." And he went on to say to him: "So your seed will become."
Gen 15:6 And he put faith in Jehovah; and he proceeded to count it to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:7 Then he added to him: "I am Jehovah, who brought you out of Ur of the Chal·de'ans to give you this land to take it in possession."

The word of Jehovah is himself Jehovah

 

[civic]

A vision is not the real thing.
Everything Jesus did and taught was Gods will, that is how God was with us. Not bodily.

Then no vision with YHWH was real so toss out all the prophets, Moses , psalms and revelation.

So the Mount of transfiguration was not true or real either, toss out the gospels and Paul’s writings since He saw Jesus who appeared to Him.

What shaky ground your theology is based upon picking and choosing anything and everything which brings Christ Glory, honor, praise and worship.

Throw away your 144,000 since it was a vision.

Next

 

[TomL]

A vision is not the real thing.
Everything Jesus did and taught was Gods will, that is how God was with us. Not bodily.

Um the words no man has seen god (the Father) at any time would include Abraham, Moses, Jacob etc

So who did they see?

You have not answered the question

I can tell you it was the messenger of the Lord aka the word of God - the pre-incarnate Christ

(NWT)1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[civic]

Um the words no man has seen god (the Father) at any time would include Abraham, Moses, Jacob etc

So who did they see?

You have not answered the question

I can tell you it was the messenger of the Lord aka the word of God - the pre-incarnate Christ

(NWT)1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

Yes avoiding it like the plague

 

[e v e]

you are just twisting what is said--An angel of God is not God.

sure can be. when an angel is mentioned can be Christ our deity. how humans described things is what is limited, and misinterpreted. God is not limited to our senses.

or to what scribes wrote down.

 

[e v e]

sorry for interrupting an exchange. i am old... stopped keeping track of who keiw was replying to.

 

[TomL]

Yes avoiding it like the plague

It seems to be the pattern of those who deny Christ

 

[Keiw1]

Then no vision with YHWH was real so toss out all the prophets, Moses , psalms and revelation.

So the Mount of transfiguration was not true or real either, toss out the gospels and Paul’s writings since He saw Jesus who appeared to Him.

What shaky ground your theology is based upon picking and choosing anything and everything which brings Christ Glory, honor, praise and worship.

Throw away your 144,000 since it was a vision.

Next

You cant prove any vision is real. And appeared to him is different than a vision.

 

[Keiw1]

Um the words no man has seen god (the Father) at any time would include Abraham, Moses, Jacob etc

So who did they see?

You have not answered the question

I can tell you it was the messenger of the Lord aka the word of God - the pre-incarnate Christ

(NWT)1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4 (LEB) — 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:9 (LEB) — 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

Does it literally say it was Jesus?

 

[TomL]

Does it literally say it was Jesus?

You did not answer the question.

Who did they see?

These prove it was Jesus

1 Corinthians 10:1–4 (LEB) — 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all went through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:7–9 (LEB) — 7 and not become idolaters, as some of them did, just as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play,” 8 nor commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed sexual immorality, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day, 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[Keiw1]

You did not answer the question.

Who did they see?

These prove it was Jesus

1 Corinthians 10:1–4 (LEB) — 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all went through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:7–9 (LEB) — 7 and not become idolaters, as some of them did, just as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play,” 8 nor commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed sexual immorality, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day, 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.

Not one prior to 1 ce knew Jesus. They knew of a Messiah but did not know him or follow him.

 

[TomL]

Not one prior to 1 ce knew Jesus. They knew of a Messiah but did not know him or follow him.

The question was not whether they knew Jesus back then

The question is who was it

1 Corinthians 10:1–4 (LEB) — 1 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all went through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:7–9 (LEB) — 7 and not become idolaters, as some of them did, just as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play,” 8 nor commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed sexual immorality, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day, 9 nor put Christ to the test, as some of them tested him, and were destroyed by snakes,

Jude 5 (LEB) — 5 Now I want to remind you, although you know everything once and for all, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, the second time destroyed those who did not believe.


and you failed to address it