The Conflation of the Calvinist

[atpollard]

That's need to be defined properly though and that's something Calvinists do not do. First we start off with believing that God is a good God and his word has integrity so what he shares with us in a message we can count on it and be totally confident it's established.

Are you advocating that SALVATION begins in the MIND of men generating belief?
I am not debating, just seeking to clearly understand some vague language that could have multiple meanings.

Once God has released his mind and will through his word if you're choosing not to be rebellious you turn that from being not just a confidence of what God will do but you participate in it by choosing to believe which is a verb which means you receive. God does not impart to any one the believing part. It is they which must act and receive.

I am unclear about "christian slangs" (just because the same words mean different things to different people). What EXACTLY are you claiming the WORD does and what does the PERSON do?
Again, I am not debating, just seeking to clearly understand your point of view.

[PS. I will take a shot at defining "THAT" if you can clarify exactly what it is that needs defining - although I will define it as a Particular Baptist rather than a "WCF" Presbyterian. "Calvinist" is a big tent and I am, what I am.]

 

[civic]

The article said ...

Dr. Scott uses a quote from Calvin himself who interprets verse 8 as, "he (Paul) asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us"​

Note the Bolded sentence, and the underlined part in particular.
If, as you claim, we bring faith that comes from US [Let's assume that is true for this post] and as "Dr Scott (Clark) states "NOTHING connected with it (salvation) is our own" [Let's assume that is also true for this post] ... then is that not claiming that FAITH (Our Faith) plays no part in our salvation?

Explain to me what I have misunderstood from your embrace of his quote?
That position seems both contra-intuitive and contra-Scriptural to Ephesians 2:8-9 where faith seems very much integral to the phrase which is the "gift".

Clearly we bring "faith".
Just as clearly, "being saved by grave through faith" is not of ourselves, but is the GIFT of God.
I keep asking ...

HOW CAN THIS BE?

... and people seem willing to address any other point but that one.
[My answer is a simple "as God has allotted to each a measure of faith" - Romans 12:3 ... to which I get a "taint' so" with no real alternative explanation offered.]

so the question remains:
What EXACTLY is the GIFT (not of yourself) that God gives in Ephesians 2:1-9?

No God saves once we believe. Faith is not a work which is the Calvinists strawman

 

[atpollard]

No God saves once we believe. Faith is not a work which is the Calvinists strawman

Your hatred of "Calvinist strawmen" is so great that you seem incapable of having a conversation with someone that is NOT a Calvinist. You instinctively ignore what is being asked in order to fight your "boogeyman".

• Did I say "faith is a work"? NO! I said If SALVATION is the GIFT and SALVATION is "not of yourself" and "faith" is "of yourself", then HOW can faith be part of SALVATION?
• I am speaking about SCRIPTURE ... Ephesians 2:8 [NKJV] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
• I keep asking about the GIFT (not of yourselves).

I am not a Calvinist.
I do not attend a "Calvinist" Church.
I have never even heard of a "Calvinist" Seminary.
There is no "Calvinist" denomination.

I happen to agree with what John Calvin believed about 4 points of scripture.
I disagree with what John Calvin believed about MANY other things:

• John believed in infant baptism, I believe that the Church is comprised of professing believers ONLY (Credo vs Paedo).
• John believed in a Church Hierarchy and I believe that Paul established ELDERS in all of the cities where he established Churches because each local congregation was self-sufficient and answered to ONE HEAD (Jesus Christ Himself) with the Holy Spirit as the only "intermediate power" that God required.
• John believed in State Churches. I believe that when the state and church climb into bed together, BOTH end up corrupted. We are called to "Render unto Caesar the things that belong to Caesar, and render to God the things that belong to God" ... without conflating the two!

If I knew more of the details of what John Calvin believed, I could probably find many more points of difference. The critical point is that I would make a TERRIBLE follower of John Calvin.

Fortunately, I hold SCRIPTURE in very high regard and what I believe, I believe because of what I read in SCRIPTURE. So the follies of John Calvin and your irrational hatred of the follies of a dead man are of little interest to me.

Let me know if you ever want to discuss the BIBLE and what it says and what I believe. THAT, I will be happy to talk about. John Calvin ... not so much (John only got 4 things right ... hardly grounds for canonization).

 

[Presby02]

How is that "not of yourselves" when EVERYTHING depends on man's faith to start the salvation chain reaction?

LOL, good question.

 

[civic]

Your hatred of "Calvinist strawmen" is so great that you seem incapable of having a conversation with someone that is NOT a Calvinist. You instinctively ignore what is being asked in order to fight your "boogeyman".

• Did I say "faith is a work"? NO! I said If SALVATION is the GIFT and SALVATION is "not of yourself" and "faith" is "of yourself", then HOW can faith be part of SALVATION?
• I am speaking about SCRIPTURE ... Ephesians 2:8 [NKJV] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,
• I keep asking about the GIFT (not of yourselves).

I am not a Calvinist.
I do not attend a "Calvinist" Church.
I have never even heard of a "Calvinist" Seminary.
There is no "Calvinist" denomination.

I happen to agree with what John Calvin believed about 4 points of scripture.
I disagree with what John Calvin believed about MANY other things:

• John believed in infant baptism, I believe that the Church is comprised of professing believers ONLY (Credo vs Paedo).
• John believed in a Church Hierarchy and I believe that Paul established ELDERS in all of the cities where he established Churches because each local congregation was self-sufficient and answered to ONE HEAD (Jesus Christ Himself) with the Holy Spirit as the only "intermediate power" that God required.
• John believed in State Churches. I believe that when the state and church climb into bed together, BOTH end up corrupted. We are called to "Render unto Caesar the things that belong to Caesar, and render to God the things that belong to God" ... without conflating the two!

If I knew more of the details of what John Calvin believed, I could probably find many more points of difference. The critical point is that I would make a TERRIBLE follower of John Calvin.

Fortunately, I hold SCRIPTURE in very high regard and what I believe, I believe because of what I read in SCRIPTURE. So the follies of John Calvin and your irrational hatred of the follies of a dead man are of little interest to me.

Let me know if you ever want to discuss the BIBLE and what it says and what I believe. THAT, I will be happy to talk about. John Calvin ... not so much (John only got 4 things right ... hardly grounds for canonization).

You are beating a dead horse that I have addressed dozens and dozens of times. I will repeat this once again as Jesus taught in the gospels.

Not once and I repeat not once did Jesus ever say or imply that mans faith in Him was a gift. What He did say on numerous occasions ( minimum of 12 times ) is that YOUR FAITH has saved you, YOUR FAITH had made you well/healed you.

Faith not once in all the Bible is ever given, granted or supplied by God to an unbeliever, not once.

Salvation is 100 % God doing the miracle of the new birth, healing, saving. Man must first believe for the miracle of salvation or healing to occur.


Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

hope this helps !!!

Yup ... Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn't exist in your Bible since any questions about it result in an answer about any and every other verse in the Bible.
Now I understand.

and the question, for those playing along at home is ...
What EXACTLY is the GIFT (not of yourself) that God gives in Ephesians 2:1-9?

 

[atpollard]

Faith not once in all the Bible is ever given, granted or supplied by God to an unbeliever, not once.


Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you ) hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Just FYI:
This was a bit confusing (and contradictory). I assume the part in parenthesis does not belong in the text and is just a cut-paste error.

 

[civic]

Yup ... Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn't exist in your Bible since any questions about it result in an answer about any and every other verse in the Bible.
Now I understand.

and the question, for those playing along at home is ...
What EXACTLY is the GIFT (not of yourself) that God gives in Ephesians 2:1-9?

You did read the Greek regarding number, gender and case with pisteo right ?

salvation , grace and this are nominative and faith is genitive,

 

[civic]

Just FYI:
This was a bit confusing (and contradictory). I assume the part in parenthesis does not belong in the text and is just a cut-paste error.

Yes its what calvinsits teach which is not in the text.

 

[atpollard]

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith has healed you."

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

Ephesians 2:8 [NKJV] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,

So identifying the GIFT by color, how does anyone reconcile all of those you/your (above) with "not of yourself"? "Your" self seems to have played a significant role, has it not?

[You identified the scriptural conflict but merely rejected my solution without actually resolving the conflict except by "fiat" (because you say so).]

 

[atpollard]

You did read the Greek regarding number, gender and case with pisteo right ?

salvation , grace and this are nominative and faith is genitive,

"Gender" (of: faith, saved, grace, gift, that) yes, the others, no.

However neither have you bothered to explain it, have you?

 

[civic]

Ephesians 2:8 [NKJV] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,

So identifying the GIFT by color, how does anyone reconcile all of those you/your (above) with "not of yourself"? "Your" self seems to have played a significant role, has it not?

[You identified the scriptural conflict but merely rejected my solution without actually resolving the conflict except by "fiat" (because you say so).]

There is no conflict in my view. Salvation is the gift of God by His grace. Faith is the requirement to be saved everywhere in Scripture. My view harmonizes with everything I stated.

 

[atpollard]

Yes its what calvinsits teach which is not in the text.

Technically, MOST of those were not actually about SALVATION, most were physical healing.
Romans 12:3 is in the "text" (scripture) and talks about the source of Faith.
Matthew 16:17 talks about the source of spiritual truth concerning Christ.

Just saying.

 

[atpollard]

There is no conflict in my view. Salvation is the gift of God by His grace. Faith is the requirement to be saved everywhere in Scripture. My view harmonizes with everything I stated.

I hope it was clear that the "you/your" was not personal but a direct reference to the words quoted in the text ... those were God's "you/your" as they appeared in the verses.

 

[atpollard]

There is no conflict in my view. Salvation is the gift of God by His grace. Faith is the requirement to be saved everywhere in Scripture. My view harmonizes with everything I stated.

That is "fiat" ... a statement of fact that feels no need to reference or explain any presented scripture in support. It is true because YOU say it is true. I think it may be a logical fallacy, but that is besides the point. It sort of ends conversation since the only response is "taint so." and communication spirals down from there.

 

[civic]

Technically, MOST of those were not actually about SALVATION, most were physical healing.
Romans 12:3 is in the "text" (scripture) and talks about the source of Faith.
Matthew 16:17 talks about the source of spiritual truth concerning Christ.

Just saying.

Technically the Greek word is sozo- to save, heal.

ROM 12:3 is believers.

 

[atpollard]

ROM 12:3 is believers.

[humor]
So is most of the Letters ... and the Gospels are Jews.
Does that mean none of scripture is for "seekers" ... that sounds HYPERCALVINIST.

 

[civic]

So is most of the Letters ... and the Gospels are Jews.
Does that mean none of scripture is for "seekers" ... that sounds HYPERCALVINIST.

Unbelievers must believe to be saved. Romans 12:3 are those already saved that have been granted faith.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

You are beating a dead horse that I have addressed dozens and dozens of times. I will repeat this once again as Jesus taught in the gospels.

Not once and I repeat not once did Jesus ever say or imply that mans faith in Him was a gift. What He did say on numerous occasions ( minimum of 12 times ) is that YOUR FAITH has saved you, YOUR FAITH had made you well/healed you.

Faith not once in all the Bible is ever given, granted or supplied by God to an unbeliever, not once.

Salvation is 100 % God doing the miracle of the new birth, healing, saving. Man must first believe for the miracle of salvation or healing to occur.


Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

hope this helps !!!

And what else do you have that was not given to you by God?

 

[Joe]

I owe you an apology. What was intended as more of an explanation probably came cross with a harsher tone in print than it would have in conversation (the limitations of no non-verbal communication).

Brother, I understand. I do the same as well. No apology necessary, and thank you.

I prefer to communicate with PEOPLE rather than exchange quotes from outside opinions. I asked what YOU THOUGHT, not what other experts claimed because I was interested in YOUR OPINIONS on exactly what God gave us. I do not disagree with your quoted experts on the Greek, but YOU and I may or may not agree in our understanding of what it GIFT means for us.

God's Blessings back at you

The gift of God the Apostle Paul refers to is "by grace ye are having been saved, through faith". He then disqualifies man's efforts of good works by finishing his statement with, "not of works, that no one may boast".

"for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast"

"by grace ye are having been saved, through faith" is God's gift.
"ye are having been saved" is NOT OF YOU, it is not of works, that no one may boast.

So the gift is salvation by God's grace, through faith instead of works, that no one may boast.

God Bless