The Conflation of the Calvinist

Both this and saved are nominitive and match and faith is genitive. So once again proving you are incorrect.

Greek
For [it is]
γὰρ (gar)
Conjunction
Strong's 1063: For. A primary particle; properly, assigning a reason.

by grace
χάριτί (chariti)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's 5485: From chairo; graciousness, of manner or act.

you have been
ἐστε (este)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

saved
σεσῳσμένοι (sesōsmenoi)
Verb - Perfect Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 4982: To save, heal, preserve, rescue. From a primary sos; to save, i.e. Deliver or protect.

through
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

faith,
πίστεως (pisteōs)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.

this
τοῦτο (touto)
Demonstrative Pronoun - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3778: This; he, she, it.

not
οὐκ (ouk)
Adverb
Strong's 3756: No, not. Also ouk, and ouch a primary word; the absolute negative adverb; no or not.

from
ἐξ (ex)
Preposition
Strong's 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

yourselves;
ὑμῶν (hymōn)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4771: You. The person pronoun of the second person singular; thou.

[it is] the
τὸ (to)
Article - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

gift
δῶρον (dōron)
Noun - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 1435: A gift, present. A present; specially, a sacrifice.

of God,
Θεοῦ (Theou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.
You're proving my point. Faith is feminine. Saved is masculine. "This" or "that" (depending on translation) is neuter. It can't refer back (by gender) to either faith or saved (or even "salvation"). Therefore it refers back to the whole concept of "are having been saved through faith".
 
You're proving my point. Faith is feminine. Saved is masculine. "This" or "that" (depending on translation) is neuter. It can't refer back (by gender) to either faith or saved (or even "salvation"). Therefore it refers back to the whole concept of "are having been saved through faith".
wrong this, gift and saved are all NOMINITIVE. They all agree/match each other

faith is in the GENITIVE- it doesn't agree/match.

next fallacy.

hope this helps !!!
 
Yup. That is what I am saying.

Romans 1 says that the knowledge of God is imparted to all men (even pagans that never hear the Gospel from ANY preacher) and that leaves them "without excuse" when they reject God
In Rom 1 though you're talking about the knowledge of what God did with creation and not the knowledge of the gospel being preached....but let's go with that.

They are without excuse because they are choosing to deny and reject the self evident.....that there is a God because of the order of Creation. That doesn't mean they were bound to do this with no choice to do the other. You're claiming they were bound but if they were bound from birth then I'd say to you and I believe rational thinking would say to you that they most certainly did have an excuse! Why wouldn't they?
So that really IS what I believe.
... and because I am a Baptist and believe in SOUL LIBERTY (people answer to God, not to other men), I offer you complete freedom to accept or reject my beliefs and to follow YOUR conscience where God leads YOU [with my complete blessings].
Well that's really wonderful and magnanimous of you friend to give me that! I rather think Jesus has given that to me though before you came along. :)
 
So you agree Gods grace extends to all men, everyone, everywhere correct ?
On whom does the sun refuse to shine?
For whom does God withhold the air we breathe?
What land is so evil that it never rains and nothing grows?


That is a far cry from Jesus DIED FOR ALL, so ALL MEN ARE SAVED and must actively reject it ... so let's not force words into my mouth. They taste bitter.

[maybe not Esau ... it says "Esau I hated", so I can't say for certain God's grace extends to Esau. ;) ]
 
Well that's really wonderful and magnanimous of you friend to give me that! I rather think Jesus has given that to me though before you came along. :)
The number of people BURNED, tortured, drowned, shunned and in other ways harmed for their beliefs throughout history says different. It is no small thing that Baptists have battled for this freedom since 1600 and many of the Baptist Distinctives are CORNERSTONES of the American Democracy. I did not "give it to you", but those Baptists that came before me DIED to bring it to us. In Jesus day, one human could OWN another and people were expelled from a synagogue and their community for daring to believe contrary to the Leaders.

Jesus gave you freedom from sin. Baptists gave you freedom of Religion and Separation of Church and State.
You are welcome.
 
On whom does the sun refuse to shine?
For whom does God withhold the air we breathe?
What land is so evil that it never rains and nothing grows?


That is a far cry from Jesus DIED FOR ALL, so ALL MEN ARE SAVED and must actively reject it ... so let's not force words into my mouth. They taste bitter.

[maybe not Esau ... it says "Esau I hated", so I can't say for certain God's grace extends to Esau. ;) ]

Go further. Are all preached the Gospel? Keep going and stop repeating Calvinism when you're obvious not a real Calvinist.
 
They are without excuse because they are choosing to deny and reject the self evident.....that there is a God because of the order of Creation. That doesn't mean they were bound to do this with no choice to do the other. You're claiming they were bound but if they were bound from birth then I'd say to you and I believe rational thinking would say to you that they most certainly did have an excuse! Why wouldn't they?
Do you really care, or have you made your point?
[I am trying to determine sincere questions from rhetorical questions without the benefit of non-verbal cues.]
 
On whom does the sun refuse to shine?
For whom does God withhold the air we breathe?
What land is so evil that it never rains and nothing grows?


That is a far cry from Jesus DIED FOR ALL, so ALL MEN ARE SAVED and must actively reject it ... so let's not force words into my mouth. They taste bitter.

[maybe not Esau ... it says "Esau I hated", so I can't say for certain God's grace extends to Esau. ;) ]
Here let me help you understand the biblical meaning of the verse you quoted. :)

Miseo in the lexicon , hate means to esteem less, to love less- even many Calvinist theologians agree that is the meaning. The same meaning from Jesus when He said a disciple must hate his own mother, father to come follow Him. Hate there means the exact same thing. You love your mother/father less than you do Jesus- You esteem Jesus more, love Him more.

Why would God bless Esau if He actually hated him ?

An oxymoron once again in your theology, a contradiction.

miseó: to hate

Original Word: μισέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: miseó
Phonetic Spelling: (mis-eh'-o)
Definition: to hate
Usage: I hate, detest, love less, esteem less.

HELPS Word-studies

3404 miséō – properly, to detest (on a comparativebasis); hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone(something) else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another.

Lk 14:26: "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate (3404 /miséō, 'love less' than the Lord) his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple" (NASU).

[Note the comparative meaning of 3404 (miséō) which centers in moral choice, elevating one value over another.]

to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 BDAG


BDAG.
② to be disinclined to, disfavor, disregard in contrast to preferential treatment (Gn 29:31; Dt 21:15, 16) Mt 6:24; Lk 16:13. τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ J 12:25 or ἑαυτοῦ Lk 14:26 (cp. the formulation Plut, Mor. 556d οὐδʼ ἐμίσουν ἑαυτούς; on the theme cp. Tyrtaeus [VII B.C.] 8, 5 D.3). Ro 9:13 (Mal 1:2f). Perh. 2 Cl 6:6 (s. 1b). (JDenney, The Word ‘Hate’ in Lk 14:26: ET 21, 1910, 41f; WBleibtreu, Paradoxe Aussprüche Jesu: Theol. Arbeiten aus d. wissensch. Prediger-Verein d. Rheinprovinz, new ser. 20, 24, 15–35; RSockman, The Paradoxes of J. ’36).—ACarr, The Mng. of ‘Hatred’ in the NT: Exp. 6th ser., 12, 1905, 153–60.—DELG. M-M. EDNT. TW.

And here is a Greek Scholar/Teacher Robert Mounce

I loved, but Esau I hated” (Mal 1:2–3). This should not be interpreted to mean that God actually hated Esau. The strong contrast is a Semitic idiom that heightens the comparison by stating it in absolute terms. 17

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995), 198–199.

Berkeley softens the contrast translating, “To Jacob I was drawn, but Esau I repudiated” (the NRSV has “chose” and “rejected”). In discussing the “hatred” of God, Michel comments that it “is not so much an emotion as a rejection in will and deed” (TDNT 4.687).

Robert H. Mounce, Romans, vol. 27, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1995).

Here are more renown Scholars

Esau I hated. I.e., “loved less,” according to an ancient Near Eastern hyperbole. It expresses the lack of gratuitous election of Esau and the Edomites (Idumaeans). See Gen 29:30–31: “he loved Rachel more than Leah …; when the Lord saw that Leah was hated …”; cf. Deut 21:15–17; compare Luke 14:26 (“hate”) with Matt 10:37 (“love more”). There is no hint here of predestination to “grace” or “glory” of an individual; it is an expression of the choice of corporate Israel over corporate Edom.

Joseph A. Fitzmyer S.J., Romans: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, vol. 33, Anchor Yale Bible (New Haven; London: Yale University Press, 2008), 563.

13. Characteristically Paul backs up his argument with a quotation from Scripture, this one from Malachi 1:2–3: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” Two questions are important here: Is Paul referring to nations or individuals? and What is meant by hated? As to the first, we have just seen that the Genesis passage refers primarily to nations and we would expect that to continue here. That this is the case seems clear from what Malachi writes about Esau: “Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals” (Mal. 1:3). Both in Genesis and Malachi the reference is clearly to nations, and we should accept this as Paul’s meaning accordingly.

The meaning of hated is a different kind of problem. There is a difficulty in that Scripture speaks of a love of God for the whole world (John 3:16) and the meaning of “God is love” (1 John 4:8, 16) is surely that God loves, quite irrespective of merit or demerit in the beloved. Specifically he is said to love sinners (Rom. 5:8). It is also true that in Scripture there are cases where “hate” seems clearly to mean “love less” (e.g., Gen. 29:31, 33; Deut. 21:15; Matt. 6:24; Luke 14:26; John 12:25). Many find this an acceptable solution here: God loved Esau (and the nation Edom) less than he loved Jacob (and Israel). But it is perhaps more likely that like Calvin we should understand the expression in the sense “reject” over against “accept”. He explains the passage thus: “I chose Jacob and rejected Esau, induced to this course by my mercy alone, and not by any worthiness in his works.… I had rejected the Edomites.…” This accords with the stress throughout this passage on the thought of election for service. God chose Israel for this role; he did not so choose Edom. Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans,

hope this helps !!!
 
The number of people BURNED, tortured, drowned, shunned and in other ways harmed for their beliefs throughout history says different. It is no small thing that Baptists have battled for this freedom since 1600 and many of the Baptist Distinctives are CORNERSTONES of the American Democracy.
Interesting. So you're exalting denominationalism saying it's exclusively a Baptist thing that brought about and supported modern Democracy? I have no doubt they had a positive effect but rather presumptuous I would think to claim such an exclusive position.
Jesus gave you freedom from sin. Baptists gave you freedom of Religion and Separation of Church and State.
What? So separation of Church from State wasn't a God thing? You did this all yourselves?
You are welcome.
You say I've got to say thank you to a denomination? If there's anything good on the Earth why don't I just give Thanks to God?
 
Here let me help you understand the biblical meaning of the verse you quoted.
Here let ME help YOU understand the verse you mis-eisegeted (I actually quoted it in part verbatim).

Read on EXACTLY how God expresses his "miseó" for Esau:

Malachi 1:3-4 [NKJV]
But Esau I have hated,
  • And laid waste his mountains
  • and his heritage
  • For the jackals of the wilderness."
  • Even though Edom has said, "We have been impoverished,
  • But we will return and build the desolate places," Thus says the LORD of hosts: "They may build, but I will throw down;
  • They shall be called the Territory of Wickedness,
  • And the people against whom the LORD will have indignation forever.
What are the words for "indignation" and "forever"?
Do they mean "I love you a little less"?
 
Interesting. So you're exalting denominationalism saying it's exclusively a Baptist thing that brought about and supported modern Democracy? I have no doubt they had a positive effect but rather presumptuous I would think to claim such an exclusive position.
  1. Baptists are not a denomination ... by definition, they have no hierarchy or central body of literature (other than the Bible ... which just makes them Christian). This is different from all Lutherans that accept the Book of Concord or Presbytyrians that have a Church Hierarchy. Every Baptist Church is a "denomination" of 1 church.
  2. I did not say "democracy", I said two features of American Democracy not found in most other Governments (even other democracies) are directly from the Baptist Distictives of the Baptist representatives in the Continental Congress from Baptist settled Colonies. Freedom of Religion was ILLEGAL in places like Colonial Virginia, one had to belong to the State Church to hold any public office.
 
What? So separation of Church from State wasn't a God thing? You did this all yourselves?
Historically, (in scripture) God establishes Kingdoms and condemns democracies ...

Judges 17:6 [NKJV] In those days [there was] no king in Israel; everyone did [what was] right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 [NKJV] In those days [there was] no king in Israel; everyone did [what was] right in his own eyes.

... however I believe God used the persecution of Baptists for insisting on reading and believing scripture over State Churches to make our hearts tender to an evil that even Clergymen were willing to embrace in the name of a so-called "greater good" ... thus Baptists were the MEANS that God used even as FAITH is the MEANS that God uses to save ... but it is still God's means and God who saves. We are just the empty vessels that hold His mercy.
 
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  1. Baptists are not a denomination ... by definition, they have no hierarchy or central body of literature (other than the Bible ... which just makes them Christian). This is different from all Lutherans that accept the Book of Concord or Presbytyrians that have a Church Hierarchy. Every Baptist Church is a "denomination" of 1 church.

Geesh......

Care to defend this in another thread? I've been among the "baptist" my entire life. If there is anything worse than a follower of Calvin it is these so called "baptist".

[*]I did not say "democracy", I said two features of American Democracy not found in most other Governments (even other democracies) are directly from the Baptist Distictives of the Baptist representatives in the Continental Congress from Baptist settled Colonies. Freedom of Religion was ILLEGAL in places like Colonial Virginia, one had to belong to the State Church to hold any public office.
[/LIST]
We have a Republic. Not a true democracy at most any level. There were no "baptist colonies". Many "baptist" that came here did so to make their fortune.
 
Historically, (in scripture) God establishes Kingdoms and condemns democracies ...

Judges 17:6 [NKJV] In those days [there was] no king in Israel; everyone did [what was] right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 [NKJV] In those days [there was] no king in Israel; everyone did [what was] right in his own eyes.

... however I believe God used the persecution of Baptists for insisting on reading and believing scripture over State Churches to make our hearts tender to an evil that even Clergymen were willing to embrace in the name of a so-called "greater good" ... this Baptists were the MEANS that God used even as FAITH is the MEANS that God uses to save ... but it is still God's means and God who saves. We are just the empty vessels that hold His mercy.

I'm a descendent of a Nonconformist from the 17th century. Baptists are some very proud people. They exaggerate their influence in EVERYTHING.

You "rule" your churches.... Right?

You traded one King in England for another KING in the pulpit......
 
I agree.

Repentance is an act of the will based upon a thoughtful decision to turn to the Lord and away from one's self.

Having faith in Jesus Christ is to cry out to Him to save you.

Neither one of these is performed by the Lord but by the individual. And neither one of these are self induced, but are a result of God's workings.

This does not mean a person cannot resist God, for it is quite obvious we all do. And it is also obvious from the bible that God wants all to be saved. A person will either obey God by faith or not. Jesus addressed the judgment in His talk with Nicodemus, "This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn’t come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God.” (John 3:19-21)

Notice the bold words above. These are clearly actions of man's will; doesn't come into the light and does the truth and comes into the light.

In my past experience, Calvinists want to dodge this simple and apparent fact by rhetoric and accusations of works. They are of course wrong in their accusations, not really knowing what God demands from a man in the New Covenant.

God does not repent for man neither believes for a man; these are the standards God established in the New Covenant whereby He declares one to be in conformity to His covenant when one obeys Him. This means one is declared righteous by God; being justified-declared to be in conformity with Him when one repents and believes, as He has stipulated.

Works salvation is deciding not to repent or believe in Jesus Christ, but to earn one's salvation by other means than faith in Jesus Christ. This subverts God's established standards, which the Jewish people of Jesus' day has done. They were rejected and became vessels of dishonor for their rejection of God's way to justify them.

The Gospel of God is to repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Without doing either one of these, a person will not be saved.

God Bless
When you think about it they really don't believe in faith alone its just a saying.

What they really believe is in election alone. God regenerates the elect before they can believe. This is just another reason to reject their doctrines. They are filled with contradictions.

Another contradiction is that God commands all people everywhere to repent. But in calvinism God causes man to repent so the command to repent is useless. In their system man is incapable of repenting.
 
When you think about it they really don't believe in faith alone its just a saying.

What they really believe is in election alone. God regenerates the elect before they can believe. This is just another reason to reject their doctrines. They are filled with contradictions.

Another contradiction is that God commands all people everywhere to repent. But in calvinism God causes man to repent so the command to repent is useless.
I agree brother. Calvin's election is a major foundation in Calvinism, but obviously Calvin's election is earthly, not spiritual and of God.
  • that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
  • he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world
  • For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
  • For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people
  • the love of Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that the living ones may live no more to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised.
  • the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
  • For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them.
  • Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
  • The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent
  • The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
  • As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live;
God Bless
 
I agree brother. Calvin's election is a major foundation in Calvinism, but obviously Calvin's election is earthly, not spiritual and of God.
  • that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
  • he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world
  • For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
  • For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people
  • the love of Christ constrains us, having judged this, that if One died for all, then all died; and He died for all, that the living ones may live no more to themselves, but to the One having died for them and having been raised.
  • the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
  • For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them.
  • Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
  • The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent
  • The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
  • As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live;
God Bless
Ditto
 
When you think about it they really don't believe in faith alone its just a saying.

I agree brother. Calvin's election is a major foundation in Calvinism, but obviously Calvin's election is earthly, not spiritual and of God.


"Leave them alone; they are blind guides of blind people. And if a person who is blind guides another who is blind, both will fall into a pit."
- Matthew 15:14
 
"Leave them alone; they are blind guides of blind people. And if a person who is blind guides another who is blind, both will fall into a pit."
- Matthew 15:14
You have to admit if tulip is true and the calvinist election is true then faith is a mute point. The elect were/are saved in eternity past and justified before the foundation of the world as many on the forum teach. Plus when one is regenerated ( indwelt with the Holy spirit they are saved. ) This occurs before the hearing and believing of the gospel in calvinism because of their position with total depravity and man is dead. Its the cart before the horse.
 
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