The Conflation of the Calvinist

[atpollard]

The gift is salvation not faith . That proof text doesn’t work in isolation from the rest of scripture.

PS. You asked what he meant, so I was merely clarifying his meaning.
I got no skin in what you believe ... you are not MY servant [Romans 14:4]

 

[Rockson]

What does God not control?
(an honest question)

(an honest answer)

Anything that grieves the Holy Spirit. If he controlled everything why would he want to grieve himself? If you're grieved you don't want something to be a certain way. Id say to say otherwise I'd say would be to go against rational thinking.

 

[Rockson]

... and if the man is floating face down when God drags him unresponsive to the deck of the boat,

Your analogy fails. Man is not unresponsive nor is he unconscious as how you portray. He hears the gospel preached to him and can accept, or reject and resist. Admit you can't have someone unresponsive who resists now can you.

 

[atpollard]

(an honest answer)

Anything that grieves the Holy Spirit. If he controlled everything why would he want to grieve himself? If you're grieved you don't want something to be a certain way. Id say to say otherwise I'd say would be to go against rational thinking.

I am not sure that is right.

Did it grieve God to send Babylon to kill the Jews and destroy Jerusalem and the Temple, or did it bring God "joy" to have to punish His people?
Was God in control or not?

Out of Babylon, we got Daniel and a Jewish people of a more broken and contrite heart (although not universally so). [shrug]
(getting above my pay grade)

 

[civic]

"gift" is neuter. ("this" of "this not of you" is neuter)

"saved" is masculine
"faith" is feminine
"grace" is feminine

If the GIFT was any ONE item (saved or faith or grace), then it would have been masculine or feminine to match the item and identify the gift.
The GIFT is neuter, meaning that it is the whole thing ... [YLT] "by grace ye are having been saved, through faith".
The same rules of Grammar tell us that the neuter "THIS" which is "not of you" is also the whole thing.

QED.

• "by grace ye are having been saved, through faith" is a GIFT
• "by grace ye are having been saved, through faith" is a NOT OF YOU

per the Apostle Paul.

Expositors Greek NT

But to what does the τοῦτο refer? To the πίστεωςsay some (Chrys., Theod., Jer., Bez., Beng., Bisp., Moule, etc.). The neut. τοῦτο would not be irreconcilable with that. The formula καὶ τοῦτο indeed might rather favour it, as it often adds to the idea to which it is attached. It may also be granted that a peculiarly suitable idea results—the opportune reminder that even their faith, in which at least they might think there was something of their own, has its origin in God’s grace, not in their own effort. But on the other hand the salvation is the main idea in the preceding statement, and it seems best to understand the καὶ τοῦτο as referring to that salvation in its entire compass, and not merely to the one element in it, its instrumental cause, appended by way of explanation. Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον; it is the gift of God. Or, perhaps, “God’s gift it is”. The salvation is not an achievement but a gift, and a gift from none other than God. This declaration of the free, unmerited, conferred nature of the salvation is made the stronger not only by the contrast with the ἐξ ὑμῶν, but by the dropping of any connecting particle.

 

[civic]

For by grace, etc.
This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in Ephesians 2:5, Ephesians 2:7.

And that

Not faith, but the salvation.

Of God

Emphatic. Of God is it the gift. Vincent

And that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Which of the two things is meant - salvation or faith? The grammatical structure and the analogy of the passage favor the former view, "Your salvation is not of yourselves," though many able men have taken the latter. The apostle is so anxious to bring out the great distinguishing doctrine of grace that he puts it in all lights, affirms it positively, contrasts it with its opposite, and emphasizes it by repetition. It is a gift, not a purchase; a free gift, without money and without price; what would never have been yours, but for the generosity of God. It is very usual in the New Testament thus to represent salvation; cf. our Lord's words to Nicodemus (John 3:16); to the woman of Samaria (John 4:14); St. Paul's "Thanks be to God for his unspeakable gift" (2 Corinthians 9:15); "The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23); and 1 John 5:11, "God gave unto us eternal life, and the life is in his Son." This usage confirms the view that it is not merely faith, but the whole work and person of Christ which faith receives, that is meant here as the "gift of God." Ephesians 2:8. Pulpit commentary

 

[atpollard]

Your analogy fails. Man is not unresponsive nor is he unconscious as how you portray. He hears the gospel preached to him and can accept, or reject and resist. Admit you can't have someone unresponsive who resists now can you.

No, it just moves from PHYSICAL to SPIRITUAL.

John 3:19-20 [NASB]
19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

• who does evil?

Romans 3:10-12 [NASB]
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS,
NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE,
TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

• "not even one"

Ephesians 2:1-3 [NASB]
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

• spiritual, not physical

So ALL DO EVIL and those that do evil HATE THE LIGHT and DO NOT COME TO THE LIGHT and these people described are DEAD IN THEIR (OUR) SINS and BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH.

Sorry if my Pentecostal roots start to show ... BUT GOD!!!!!! ... God steps in and does something about it! That is the GOOD NEWS. That is the GOSPEL.

So, a spiritually dead man can, will and does resist the things of God with every bit of his Darkness Loving Child of Wrath Fallen Nature enslaved Will.

 

[atpollard]

Expositors Greek NT

But to what does the τοῦτο refer? To the πίστεωςsay some (Chrys., Theod., Jer., Bez., Beng., Bisp., Moule, etc.). The neut. τοῦτο would not be irreconcilable with that. The formula καὶ τοῦτο indeed might rather favour it, as it often adds to the idea to which it is attached. It may also be granted that a peculiarly suitable idea results—the opportune reminder that even their faith, in which at least they might think there was something of their own, has its origin in God’s grace, not in their own effort. But on the other hand the salvation is the main idea in the preceding statement, and it seems best to understand the καὶ τοῦτο as referring to that salvation in its entire compass, and not merely to the one element in it, its instrumental cause, appended by way of explanation. Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον; it is the gift of God. Or, perhaps, “God’s gift it is”. The salvation is not an achievement but a gift, and a gift from none other than God. This declaration of the free, unmerited, conferred nature of the salvation is made the stronger not only by the contrast with the ἐξ ὑμῶν, but by the dropping of any connecting particle.

Please grant me what Expositor's has.

I admit that the gift is salvation, but the gift is ALL of salvation. Not merely the word "saved" in the sentence. It includes at a minimum ... "saved by grace" and at a maximum "saved by grace through faith" ... and the GIFT is NOT OF YOURSELF ... so your faith is not responsible for any of your salvation!

 

[Rockson]

I am not sure that is right.

You can have peace to know that it is.

Did it grieve God to send Babylon to kill the Jews and destroy Jerusalem and the Temple, or did it bring God "joy" to have to punish His people?
Was God in control or not?

But in the context of our discussion about CONTROL with Calvinists we're referring to is every action and event the will of God on the Earth? If it is God controls everything by micromanaging and it's the testimony of the word of God that it is not.

Out of Babylon, we got Daniel and a Jewish people of a more broken and contrite heart (although not universally so). [shrug]
(getting above my pay grade)

If God is in control in the way that you want to say it then his perfect will would always be done. Babylon would NEVER have been sent to Israel bringing judgment. Similar to the flood of Noah. God was not pleased to be grieved by what was occuring. He would rather that the freedom and liberty God gave humanity of him not controlling everything they do be returned to him with obedience born from love without God using coercion.

 

[atpollard]

You can have peace to know that it is.

Ok, now that was just plain funny.

But in the context of our discussion about CONTROL with Calvinists we're referring to is every action and event the will of God on the Earth? If it is God controls everything by micromanaging and it's the testimony of the word of God that it is not.

I am not sure "micromanaging" is the word that I would have chosen. What comes between "I did that" and "Oops, I didn't want that. I guess I better do something to get things back on track."?

If God is in control in the way that you want to say it then his perfect will would always be done. Babylon would NEVER have been sent to Israel bringing judgment. Similar to the flood of Noah. God was not pleased to be grieved by what was occuring. He would rather that the freedom and liberty God gave humanity of him not controlling everything they do be returned to him with obedience born from love without God using coercion.

Based on all the times I had things "figured out", I have no clue what God's PLAN is ... He is playing on a level WAY over my head. Apparently His Son being betrayed by someone He loved, abandoned by "the Rock", and suffering more cruelty and injustice than I can even fully comprehend was all part of God's perfect will ... He INTENDED it to happen just like that. So His perfect will is just what happens and not what I think should happen.

I am learning to be at peace with that. It don't come naturally.

 

[Rockson]

who does evil?
Romans 3:10-12 [NASB]
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS,
NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Paul was using hyperbole in talking about culture that as a general rule people don't serve seek God. He was quoting from Ps 14 talking about fools in culture who say there is no God. There have been many in culture which have sought God as many OT verses show. You can't take that as a universal that no one seeks God or wants him. Read as well Acts 27:26 ,

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[praise_yeshua]

Paul was using hyperbole in talking about culture that as a general rule people don't serve seek God. He was quoting from Ps 14 talking about fools in culture who say there is no God. There have been many in culture which have sought God as many OT verses show. You can't take that as a universal that no one seeks God or wants him. Read as well Acts 27:26 ,

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Paul was speaking of a specific time in human history when man abandoned God.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

[Rockson]

Ok, now that was just plain funny.

There are times I like to make people smile.

I am not sure "micromanaging" is the word that I would have chosen.

Well if you believe absolutely everything is the word of God why wouldn't you.

What comes between "I did that" and "Oops, I didn't want that.

What do you mean between the two?

So His perfect will is just what happens and not what I think should happen.

Why can't you believe God didn't want Adam and Eve not to sin and bring death, pain, and grief into their lives?

 

[atpollard]

What do you mean between the two?

Tromping into that area of God's explicit will (what God WANTS to happen, like all men repent and accept His grace) and God's permissive will (things that God allows to happen like in Romans 1 when he "gives them over to their sinful desires", which God was certainly not rooting for men to become more evil, but it explicitly states that God permitted it by lifting a restraint on their sin). I say TROMPING, because it is an area that people should approach with humility and caution, but typically rush into like a bull in a china shop.

Why can't you believe God didn't want Adam and Eve not to sin and bring death, pain, and grief into their lives?

Because God always had a Son and our Salvation was set "in Christ" before God made an Adam ... or an Earth ... or Light. So God setting the stage was clearly no "accident" on God's part. My only option is to try and understand "why?".

The catechism says "for our good and His glory". [shrug]

 

[atpollard]

What do you mean between the two?

(deserved its own response)

"I did it" applies to all the things God actively DOES. God orchestrated my grandparents fighting to compel my atheist father to get me baptized in a church that we attended TWICE in my life (once when I was sprinkled). This from someone that attended church exactly 22 times before reaching emancipation ... Easter and Christmas for 11 years.

"Oops, I didn't want that." suggests that there are events that happen which God was powerless to prevent. That baby died because of something that someone did and God stood on the sidelines wringing His hands helplessly.

• If EVERYTHING is "I DID IT", then God is in fact the author of evil.
• If ANYTHING is "OOPS, I DIDN'T WANT THAT." then God is not OMNI- [OMNIPOTENT = able to stop it; OMNIPRESENT = there when it happened; OMNISCIENT = aware of what was happening] - and an non-OMNI God is really just a "god" with a little g.

So what falls between "I did it" and "Oops, I didn't want that."? How does God exert CONTROL without being the SOURCE OF EVIL and a Puppet Master? That is the position that I was looking for words to describe. The God of the book of Job. The God that allowed all the events in Joseph's life and somehow steered them so that "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." - Genesis 50:20 [NKJV]

 

[civic]

And we would be right. We are saved by grace. We contribute nothing to God's grace.

Again, no one said you don't have to repent and believe. You might not say it but your certainly implying it. Why say it otherwise?

Covered that already. No one calls CHRIST LORD BUT BY THE SPIRIT.

Repentance and belief are both granted or given by God. If not given it God your helpless to do so because you simply do not desire to. "NO ONE SEEKS AFTER GOD". Hence a change of heart is needed. From stone to flesh. Change of heart means a change of desires.

Answered already. NO ONE CALLS CHRIST LORD BUT BY THE SPIRIT.

Mormons and JWs call Jesus Lord.

Matt 7
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day,‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Next

 

[Rory Wilson]

Mormons and JWs call Jesus Lord.

Matt 7
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day,‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Next

I've read that verse hundreds of times and something really jumped out at me this time. And those evildoers were describing the things that they did even though they use the name of Jesus... they weren't putting him first. It was all about them... "did we not"

It's kind of like the calvinist, they're not relying on what Jesus did they're relying who they are. On being the elect the chosen ones on being predestined. It's all about them. And them being better than everyone else because they are the elect.

 

[Presby02]

Mormons and JWs call Jesus Lord.

Matt 7
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day,‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Next

So. Do they do so genuinely by the Spirit?

 

[civic]

So. Do they do so genuinely by the Spirit?

How would you know you do genuinely by the Spirit ?

 

[Don Miller]

How would you know you do genuinely by the Spirit ?

I would say Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses both have a different Jesus.

As believers we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit will let us know if we are doing God's will or our will.

Holy Spirit conviction.