The Conflation of the Calvinist

Mormons and JWs call Jesus Lord.
Matthew 15:8 [NKJV]
'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.

Do they REALLY?
Do the Mormons acknowledge the deity of Jesus and accept Him as fully God?
Do the JW acknowledge the deity of Jesus and accept Him as fully God?

It is not saying Jesus is ‘a lord’ or ‘my lord’ … it is BELIEVING that Jesus is the LORD and their LORD.

Matthew 16:15-17 [NKJV]
He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven
.
 
Because God always had a Son and our Salvation was set "in Christ" before God made an Adam ... or an Earth ... or Light.
Why should you think that because God has a plan to take care of the failure that he wanted it to happen??
If you purchased an insurance plan for your offspring to drive does that mean you wanted them to get into an accident? Of curse not. So why do you think the way you do?


 
It's kind of like the calvinist, they're not relying on what Jesus did they're relying who they are. On being the elect the chosen ones on being predestined. It's all about them. And them being better than everyone else because they are the elect.
You need to read Charles Spurgeon, a “Calvinist” pastor who has hundreds of published sermons and can educate you about what we really believe. (Your ignorance of Calvinist teaching is cavernous).

The Way of Salvation

Charles Haddon Spurgeon
August 15, 1858
Scripture: Acts 4:12
From: New Park Street Pulpit Volume 4

(The opening, click the link to read on)​


"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."—Acts 4:12​


It is a very happy circumstance when the servants of God are able to turn everything to account in their ministry. Now, the apostle Peter was summoned before the priests and Sadducees, the chief of his nation, to answer for having restored a man who was lame from his mother's womb. Whilst accounting for this case of cure, or, if I may use the expression, for this case of temporal salvation, the apostle Peter had this thought suggested to him, "While I am accounting for the salvation of this man from lameness, I have now a fine opportunity of showing to these people, who otherwise will not listen to us, the way of the salvation of the soul." So he proceeds from the less to the greater, from the healing of a man's limb to the healing of a man's spirit; and having informed them once that it was through the name of Jesus Christ that the impotent man had been made whole, he now announces that salvation,—the great salvation, must be wrought by the selfsame means; "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

What a great word that word "salvation" is! It includes the cleansing of our conscience from all past guilt, the delivery of our soul from all those propensities to evil which now so strongly predominate in us; it takes in, in fact, the undoing of all that Adam did. Salvation is the total restoration of man from his fallen estate; and yet it is something more than that, for God's salvation fixes our standing more secure than it was before we fell. It finds us broken in pieces by the sin of our first parent, defiled, stained, accursed: it first heals our wounds, it removes our diseases, it takes away our curse, it puts our feet upon the rock Christ Jesus, and having thus done, at last it lifts our heads far above all principalities. and powers, to be crowned for ever with Jesus Christ, the King of heaven. Some people, when they use the word "salvation," understand nothing more by it than deliverance from hell and admittance into heaven. Now, that is not salvation: those two things are the effectsof salvation. We are redeemed from hell because we are saved, and we enter heaven because we have been saved beforehand. Our everlasting state is the effect of salvation in this life. Salvation, it is true, includes all that, because salvation is the mother of it, and carrieth it within its bowels; but still it were wrong for us to imagine that that is all the meaning of the word. Salvation begins with us as wandering sheep; it follows us through all our mazy wanderings; it puts us on the shoulders of the shepherd; it carries us into the fold; it calls together the friends and the neighbors; it rejoices over us; it preserves us in that fold through life; and then at last it brings us to the green pastures of heaven, beside the still waters of bliss, where we lie down for ever, in the presence of the Chief Shepherd, never more to be disturbed.

Now our text tells us there is only one way of salvation. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." I shall take first of all a negative truth taught here, namely, that there is no salvation out of Christ; and then, secondly, a positive truth inferred, namely, that there is salvation in Jesus Christ whereby we must be saved.
 
Why should you think that because God has a plan to take care of the failure that he wanted it to happen??
“Wanted it to happen” is too strong. Planned for it to happen, yes. The fall was as integral to God’s eternal plan as the resurrection. Neither was an afterthought. Both were part of the plan (just like Joseph being sold into slavery was an integral part of God’s long-term plan). I cannot in good conscience affirm that God “wanted it to happen”, but God “knew it would happen” and God “allowed it to happen” and God “orchestrated events” (the thumb of God on ‘coincidences’ permeates the story of Joseph), so God had a plan to use it for OUR good and HIS glory.

Clearly, God had no intention of preventing an event that advanced His plan.
 
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“Wanted it to happen” is too strong. Planned for it to happen, yes. The fall was as integral to God’s eternal plan as the resurrection. Neither was an afterthought. Both were part of the plan (just like Joseph being sold into slavery was an integral part of God’s long-term plan). I cannot in good conscience affirm that God “wanted it to happen”, but God “knew it would happen” and God “allowed it to happen” and God “orchestrated events” (the thumb of God on ‘coincidences’ permeates the story), so God had a plan to use it for OUR good and HIS glory.

Clearly, God had no intention of preventing an event that advanced His plan.
Does God plan what He doesn’t want ?

Is Gods plan, Gods will ?
 
Who said anything about Ooops?
Open theism is all about “oops”. It is God reacting to events that are beyond His control. It is the “FREE WILL” of men responsible for all the things that are NOT going according to God’s plan. It is the opposite bookend to God in ABSOLUTE CONTROL of everything including evil (which is what we who advocate for Sovereignty are accused of teaching).

I presented BOTH extremes in our discussion for a middle ground.
 
Why should you think that because God has a plan to take care of the failure that he wanted it to happen??
If you purchased an insurance plan for your offspring to drive does that mean you wanted them to get into an accident? Of curse not. So why do you think the way you do?
There is a fundamental difference between me and God … one of us is OMNISCIENT, OMNIPOTENT and OMNIPRESENT. [If it was me, then my daughter would not need an insurance plan … but it isn’t.]
 
Tell me about Joseph in Egypt.
  • God’s plan?
I'd say God's plan was to saved Joseph's life. You recall his brothers wanted to kill him and probably would have if God didn't step in. God did not put in their hearts to want to kill Joseph. Murder and pride was in their hearts and this tells us it's not from God.

“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” 1 Jn 2:16
  • God’s will?
As I said God saved Joseph's life. They meant it for evil for they gained some money for doing it too......but God's intent was to save his life.
 
There is something which seems appealing to some about Calvinism is that it has the appearance of showing great humility to God. If God does everything and he controls every action how is that not showing as great an honor as we could possibly give him by acknowledging such?

Thing is though God does NOT do everything nor does he control every action and while they've sought to be sincere they are sincerely wrong. Some of them have meant well but it's a zeal to God not according to knowledge.
Rockson, my friend, good to see that you agree that some of God's children have a zeal of God, but that zeal is not based upon true knowledge, to which I agree 100%, but more than that, it is according to God's testimony of some of his elect, as it was very true of some of elect Israel who were having a hard time leaving Moses and totally coming to Christ. Romans 9b to Romans 11:36

I'm going to attempt to post some today, but having trouble with a pinched nerve under my right shoulder blade, which makes it very unpleasant to even try. 🙏

If God does everything and he controls every action how is that not showing as great an honor as we could possibly give him by acknowledging such?
I do not know many men whom I have read behind believes this, and I certainly do not~yet would say that God controls all he desires to control to work for the good of his people, and to work against those that hates him. God does what he please and none can say unto him~why doest thou? None can stop him for sure. Yet, God is not the author of sin in anyway whatsoever. God does not tempt man to to sin, his own depraved heart does quite well doing this.

Some will quote:

Proverbs 16:4~The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.​

Here are final and true answers to four of life’s greatest questions: Where did all things come from? Why do they exist? Who is the true God? Why does evil exist? This single sentence is worth your weight in gold! We should humble ourselves before this axiom from heaven and learn wisdom for life!​

Proverbs is of little value, if we miss this. The beginning of wisdom requires grasping this proverb (Pr 1:7; 9:10). This verse should be one of the first children memorize. Here is the Bible worldview. From this foundation of knowledge, we can reason safely and sanely about other aspects of life. If we neglect or reject the truth here, our life will be a nightmare of confusion, and then we will meet an angry God (Ps 7:11; Amos 4:12).

Where did all things come from? God made all things. Evolution is a lie, told by God-haters, to discredit the Bible. The Bible says: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen 1:1). This is more certain than any fact we will ever hear. If we do not have the faith to believe it, we are unreasonably stupid (2nd Thess 3:2; Ist Tim 6:20-21).

It is a sign of insanity to begin our reasoning about the universe from a big bang of chaotic gases. Where did the gases come from? How did an explosion bring order and beauty out of chaos? How did the result include reproducing identically after each kind? How did it result in millions of different kinds, all reproducing after their own kind?

Jesus Christ, the Mighty God, made all things. The Bible is plain: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). We should not argue creation versus evolution with unbelievers. Unless they have faith, they cannot learn anything of value, especially if educated. An arrogant man flattered with education and degrees is worse than a fool (Pr 26:12; Ist Cor 1:19-20; 3:19-20; Ist Tim 6:3-5).

Why do things exist? Why is the universe here? Why is man here? Why are we here? God made all things, and He made them for Himself! Give glory! Worship Him! Sing praise to Him! “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created” (Rev 4:11). We will soon bow to this Blessed and Only Potentate (Phil 2:9-11; Ist Tim 6:13-16).

These first two answers are so true, you should say, “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen” (Rom 11:36). He is the First Cause of all things, and He is the Final End of all things. All things were created by Him and for Him (Col 1:16). Fall before Him now. Give Him the honor and praise due to His name.

The universe exists because God wanted to make something for Himself. He did not make the world for man; He made the world and man for Himself. We do not exist for ourself, nor does anything else exist for us; you and all things exist for His pleasure. It is time to humble ourselves and see the purpose of your existence – the glory of God.

Evil exists because God gave Satan a free will. Rather than be content with his office, he swelled up in pride (Ist Tim 3:6). God gave him privilege and freedom, and he used it to rebel against his Creator. The blessed God was not surprised or disappointed; Satan is responsible for his wicked deed; God will be righteous in destroying him.

Where does suffering come from? Satan brought his rebellion to earth. He lied to your first parents, and Adam chose his foolish wife over God. Jehovah made man very good in a perfect world, but man corrupted the earth by sinning against His Maker (Gen 1:31; 3:16-19; Eccl 7:29). Adam chose the curse of sin for his family over Paradise with God. The whole creation groans in pain, travail, and death due to his sin (Rom 5:12-14; 8:22). God was not surprised in man's fall, and knew perfectly every sin that would result in Adam's fall, and all the misery that would follow~the sin was man's doing not God's. The first Covenant was a covenant based on Man's powers to keep it~God placed Adam and Eve in a perfect world, with his image and left him with only one commandment to keep, and no sooner when God left man, he sinned, for God alone is immutable, no created being is. Under the New Covenant God secured his elect's salvation from sin and condemnation through the obedience of His Son.

Evolutionists cannot explain death. It should have evolved away long ago, since it is the most dreaded and hated thing in life. If a slimy salamander can evolve to be a bald eagle, then surely man could have evolved death away. Death is the wages of sin. And the Bible teaches this fact clearly, which no evolutionist will ever find in a test tube or telescope. God created death, in several forms, as just punishment for sin. Therefore, all men die.

Adam’s sin in the Garden of Eden did not surprise or confuse the LORD. He had allow the entrance of sin into the human family, though Adam freely chose Eve over God without any coercion at all. Adam alone is responsible for his sin and the consequences. God made him perfect, warned him, and gave him only one commandment to keep. God had planned the entrance of sin for the ultimate display of both his wrath and mercy.
 
. God had planned the entrance of sin for the ultimate display of both his wrath and mercy.
Nope. God rather allowed to be demonstrated he was a Creator that allowed a free will choice by MAN because without liberty there could be no LOVE.

So you actually believe he wanted and had a need to show WRATH even before there was sin? I think you seriously need to reconsider your position. Just stop and consider an adult overheard saying why they wanted to have offspring....the answer should be, "So we can have a mutual loving meaningful fulfilling relationship of enjoyment between each other...."

So what would you think if one said this.....So that I can beat up and punish beings weaker than I that's something in me that I just long to do! Now be honest with me and tell me.....wouldn't you be saying that person is out of their mind and be almost willing to contact children's aid the moment a child to him was born?
 
Nope. God rather allowed to be demonstrated he was a Creator that allowed a free will choice by MAN because without liberty there could be no LOVE.

So you actually believe he wanted and had a need to show WRATH even before there was sin? I think you seriously need to reconsider your position. Just stop and consider an adult overheard saying why they wanted to have offspring....the answer should be, "So we can have a mutual loving meaningful fulfilling relationship of enjoyment between each other...."

So what would you think if one said this.....So that I can beat up and punish beings weaker than I that's something in me that I just long to do! Now be honest with me and tell me.....wouldn't you be saying that person is out of their mind and be almost willing to contact children's aid the moment a child to him was born?
Amen 🙏
 
I'd say God's plan was to saved Joseph's life. You recall his brothers wanted to kill him and probably would have if God didn't step in. God did not put in their hearts to want to kill Joseph. Murder and pride was in their hearts and this tells us it's not from God.

“For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.” 1 Jn 2:16

As I said God saved Joseph's life. They meant it for evil for they gained some money for doing it too......but God's intent was to save his life.
I find this "tag team" approach disheartening. I suppose this means that @civic will not be responding to my post directed at his comments.
So off we go on yet a new tangential bunny trail ...
  • What part did the evil that befell Joseph (which we agree was God's plan) play in the NATION moving to Egypt and becoming enslaved?
  • What part did THIS play in the story of MOSES and the PASSOVER (death/deliverance of the first born)?
  • What part did THAT play in our understanding of the mission of Jesus Christ in the NT?
  • Is that a coincidence, or did God have ALL THAT in mind when Joseph was first sold into slavery?
[Should I now expect civic to respond? ;) ]
 
Are you trying to make me feel guilty for responding to your post?
No, just pointing out the fact that my post was directed towards answering specific objections raised by civic and now that post is a jumping off point for a completely new discussion with civic abandoning his points (since he will feel you have responded). While you have responded to my post, your response had NOTHING to do with the questions that civic had raised that I was attempting to address. Thus another possible "conversation" is reduced to yet another "tit for tat" exchange that wastes ALL our time.

I am too old to care about scoring debate points. Been there, done that, nobody wins.
 
No, just pointing out the fact that my post was directed towards answering specific objections raised by civic and now that post is a jumping off point for a completely new discussion with civic abandoning his points (since he will feel you have responded). While you have responded to my post, your response had NOTHING to do with the questions that civic had raised that I was attempting to address. Thus another possible "conversation" is reduced to yet another "tit for tat" exchange that wastes ALL our time.

I am too old to care about scoring debate points. Been there, done that, nobody wins.

Inconsistence........

One minute God has control of everything and the next "nobody wins".

I wish I could find one single consistent Calvinist anywhere.......
 
In Acts 2, the LORD had already pierced their hearts before they cried out ... so who made the first move?
In Acts 16, the LORD opened Lydia's heart to respond ... so who made the first move?

That is all we are saying.

In Acts 2, the Apostle Peter preached a Jewish message from Jewish scriptures to Jewish people about a Jewish Messiah sent from the God of the Jews. And to end it, Peter told them to know for certain "that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

After hearing this powerful and fearless message from Spirit filled Peter who detailed events with scriptures, they realized the events that happened before our Lord's death, His death that they were responsible for, and now His resurrection and ascension wherein the Holy Spirit was poured out they were witnessing is of God.

Those are the details given. They were cut to heart not because God opened their eyes, for it never says this, but they heard Peter's message where he used concise prophecies and events that when realized, they knew they were responsible for killing the One they were waiting for, "God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified".

Did all of the Jewish people respond in this manner? No, only "those who gladly received his word were baptized" verse 41.

In the very detailed exchange it was never mentioned that God opened their eyes. This is an assumption and not a fact. The facts are clearly given and even stated " those who gladly received his word were baptized". The Calvinist/reformed assumption has it say "those whose mind the Lord opened and whom He infused with faith gladly received his word and were baptized". I realize you may not take it this far, but trust me "true" Calvinist/reformed have no issues with saying it, they just don't like my disagreement with them.

In Lydia's conversion, "A certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, one who worshiped God, heard us; whose heart the Lord opened to listen to the things which were spoken by Paul." (Act 16:14)

What do we know from this simple verse? Lydia was a Gentile, "one who worshiped God". She was a proselyte to the Jewish religion and had not heard the gospel message yet, so the Lord opened her heart to listen to what Paul was explaining. And we know she received the gospel message from Paul because in the next verse it tells us "she was baptized". The key to the account is Lydia was already "one who worshiped God". She was already a faithful believer of God, and God opened her heart to "listen to the things" spoken by Paul.

Two different accounts of two different situations and people.

The first account is of unbelieving Jewish people who crucified their Messiah through the Gentile Romans. They heard Peter's powerful indictment of them and the scriptures concerning the death, resurrection, and exaltation of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom they were witnessing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. They heard the message and were cut to heart realizing what they done. They sought to know what they should do. Peter promptly told them. Not once is it mentioned God opened their hearts, but it states, "those who gladly received his (Peter's) word were baptized."

The other account is unlike the first. This is an account of a Gentile woman who worshiped God already. She lived across the Mediterranean Sea in what is now Turkey. She had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, and most likely all that had happened. God opened her heart to "listen to the things" spoken by Paul. Otherwise, God had her to be open minded to hear Paul out. She heard him out and obviously believed in Paul's message about Jesus since she was baptized.

Is God involved in the salvation of a person? Yes.
Is salvation self induced? No.
What means does God use for a person to be saved? His Gospel.
Does God require man's participation? Yes.
Does God repent for man? No.
Does God believe for man? No.
Is man regenerated prior to repentance and belief? No.
Can man refuse God and harden his heart towards Him? Yes.
Can God leave a man in his sin? Yes.
Does God take delight when a wicked man perishes? No.
Would He rather they repent and live? Yes.

God Bless
 
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In Acts 2, the Apostle Peter preached a Jewish message from Jewish scriptures to Jewish people about a Jewish Messiah sent from the God of the Jews. And to end it, Peter told them to know for certain "that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

After hearing this powerful and fearless message from Spirit filled Peter who detailed events with scriptures, they realized the events that happened before our Lord's death, His death that they were responsible for, and now His resurrection and ascension wherein the Holy Spirit was poured out they were witnessing is of God.

Those are the details given. They were cut to heart not because God opened their eyes, for it never says this, but they heard Peter's message where he used concise prophecies and events that when realized, they knew they were responsible for killing the One they were waiting for, "God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified".

Did all of the Jewish people respond in this manner? No, only "those who gladly received his word were baptized" verse 41.

In the very detailed exchange it was never mentioned that God opened their eyes. This is an assumption and not a fact. The facts are clearly given and even stated " those who gladly received his word were baptized". The Calvinist/reformed assumption has it say "those whose mind the Lord opened and whom He infused with faith gladly received his word and were baptized". I realize you may not take it this far, but trust me "true" Calvinist/reformed have no issues with saying it, they just don't like my disagreement with them.
There was ONE message given to ONE crowd. There were TWO reactions:
  • They are drunk! ... not receive the word ... not baptized.
  • They are speaking in OUR native languages ... heart pierced ... received the word and were baptized.
YOU believe that the difference was 100% in the people.
I believe the difference was 100% in GOD.

We can exchange verses from elsewhere til Jesus returns without convincing the other, but the only FACT in that story that differentiates one response from another is the "pierced heart". I ascribe THAT sort of action to the God who "removes a heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh" and in whose hands a heart is like a stream to be "turned whichever way He pleases". You do not.

You have a right to be wrong. ;)
 
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