The Conflation of the Calvinist
- Thread starter civic
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Rory Wilson
New member
No I don't. Nice try though. Your ignorance of what you think I know about Is stupendous.
You know what's funny though, You want to call people ignorant And then post this:
We call that being a hypocrite where I'm from.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Your.
Rory Wilson
New member
Good looking out man. All fixed.
Have him explain the garden. Answering the same questions. Was the fall God's plan, will, accident, a creative oppsie?
Hello brother,
Let's start by addressing your reply to civic you made here.
Source #1
I've listed three informative sources, beginning with Dr. Scott, a reformed minister who "has taught church history and historical theology at Westminster Seminary California since 1997, where he served as academic dean (1997–2001). He has also taught at Wheaton College (1995–97) as visiting professor, and has served as a visiting professor at Reformed Theological Seminary (Jackson) and Concordia University Irvine."
His resume is quite impressive (Click here for bio).
Link to website: https://heidelblog.net/2014/10/what-is-the-gift-in-ephesians-28/
Dr. Scott uses a quote from Calvin himself who interprets verse 8 as, "he (Paul) asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us"
The very man that reformed theology is built upon thought the "it is the gift of God" refers to "by grace you are saved", and the "through faith" is merely the means a man receives the grace of salvation; wherein, "we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us".
Dr. Scott also uses Hodge in opposition to Calvin's thought by stating, "The object of the apostle is to show the gratuitous nature of salvation. This is most effectually done by saying, ‘Ye are not only saved by faith in opposition to works, but your very faith is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.’ 2. The other interpretation makes the passage tautological. To say: ‘Ye are saved by faith; not of yourselves; your salvation is the gift of God; it is not of works,’ is saying the same thing over and over without any progress."
And then Dr. Scott states, "Both views are monergistic, both uphold the Reformation, both are seeking to work carefully with the text and to account for Paul’s intent. In some ways they are not far apart but there is a difference between them. In order to sort out these questions I consulted my next door neighbor at work, Steve Baugh, Professor of New Testament at Westminster Seminary California, who, as it happens, has just completed a commentary on Ephesians forthcoming in the Evangelical Exegetical Commentary series. On this clause he writes,
καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, “and this does not originate from you.” There is much popular discussion about the word “τοῦτο” (“this”) and its antecedent in v.8b. It is tempting to take the antecedent as “faith” (i.e., “this faith is not from you “; as Hodge…), even though πίστις (“faith”) is feminine and the demonstrative pronoun is neuter. Grammatically, one could suppose that an abstract idea like “faith” or “believing” could be referenced as neuter, but that would make this rather common construction unnecessarily complicated (cd BDF §131). In Greek, events as a whole are treated as neuter singular things with neuter articles (e.g., το πιστευειν, “believing”), neuter relative pronouns (e.g., Eph. 5:5), or neuter demonstrative pronouns as in v. 8b (also, for example: 6:1; 1 Cor 6:6, 8; Phil 1:22, 28; Col 3:20; 1 Thess 5:18 and 1 Tim 2:1–3). Hence the antecedent of τοῦτο [“this’] is the whole event; “being saved by grace through faith.”
So, even in the reformed camp there are scholars who realize "faith" is not the gift the Apostle Paul was referencing, but the gift is, "by grace are you saved, through faith".
Source #2
Now let's go to reformed leaning Got Questions to read what they think about Ephesians 2:8.
Link to webpage: https://www.gotquestions.org/Ephesians-2-8-9.html
"First, “it is by grace you have been saved.” If we are saved by grace, this means that it is not because we are good or deserving; rather, it is because God is good and gracious.
Second, we are saved “through faith.” In order to be saved, there is a necessary human response to God’s grace. The response is not trying to be “good enough” to be saved. The response is simply trusting (having faith in) God to save on the basis of Christ’s goodness.
The next clause in Ephesians 2:8–9 is a little more difficult to understand: “And this is not from yourselves.” The interpretive issue is what the word this is referring to. Some interpreters think that it refers to faith. Thus, the verse could be paraphrased, “You have been saved by grace through faith, and even this faith is not from within you.” Those who accept this interpretation emphasize that, without the work of God in our lives, we could not even believe the gospel in order to be saved. Undoubtedly, this is true, but it may not be the best interpretation of this particular verse. The reason is that the gender of the word this (in Greek) does not match the gender of the word faith, which would normally be the case if this was a pronoun referring to faith.
The best explanation is that this refers to the whole plan and process of “salvation by grace through faith,” rather than any specific element of it—although, admittedly, the bottom line is hardly any different. Salvation-by-grace-through-faith is not from ourselves but is “a gift of God, not of works.” Once again, the nature of grace is reiterated. This whole plan and process of salvation comes from God as a gift, not from ourselves as the result of works or good things that we have done."
Source #3
From a poster named Scott S. on hermeneutics.stackexchange.com.
Scott S. has an M.A. in Bible Exposition, Master of Divinity, and Ph.D. in Biblical Studies with a concentration in Systematic Theology.
He gives an informative explanation of the Greek text that aids to understand what the gift of God is.
Link to webpage: https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/10348
Scott S. uses the original Greek text interpreted into English as "For by grace ye have been saved through faith, and this not of you—the gift of God! Not of works, that no one can boast." This same interpretation is spot on to Young's Literal Translation (YLT) and Jay Green's Literal Translation Bile (LITV)
He states,
"Three key things help determine what the gift from God is:
χάριτί (grace) has a grammatical gender of feminine in Greek.
πίστεως (faith) has a grammatical gender of feminine in Greek.
τοῦτο (this) has a grammatical gender of neuter in Greek.
Greek syntax matches gender of pronouns to the antecedent it refers to.4 So if "this" referred to either grace or faith individually, it should be in the feminine gender—and there is no reason it would not have been had such been the intention. Such a form would be ambiguous, since it could refer to either grace or faith, but likely be referring to the nearest referent, and thus faith.
However, the neuter gender is used for the pronoun. This is the common gender used when a phrase or clause is the antecedent.5 So "this" refers to the whole previous clause, "By grace ye have been saved through faith."6
So this fact expressed by the clause, that only by grace through faith have any who are saved entered into that state of salvation, is a fact that is not something that comes about from oneself, not "of you." Rather, this is an "of God" thing, it is "the gift" of God that such is the way of salvation, by grace through faith.
So the "it" your question refers to is the English added subject of the verbless clause in Greek, which subject is pointing back to the "this" preceding it. Which "this" refers to the entire clause preceding it.
And it is the gift of God in order that it is "not of works" (because none would achieve salvation then, for no sinful person can be as righteous as God, Rom 3:10), and it was so done in order that no person might boast of saving himself or herself through good works. Indeed, good works is what a person is obligated and designed to do anyway, and why God saves anyone at all, so that His will for such to be done is done (v.10)."
The three sources listed above are only the tip of sources available. Two of the sources are reformed and use reformed sources and one is reformed leaning, and all three properly interpret the gift of God is "By grace ye have been saved through faith."
God Bless
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atpollard
Well-known member
Let's not. Let's answer the question about how YOU exegete the Scripture.
I am Particular Baptist ... meaning that we are doubly serious about that whole "Sola Scriptura" thing [enough to historically be put to death rather than yield on that point] ... meaning the opinions of 'Scotty' or Johny' are a matter of complete indifference to me.
I would point out that Dr. Scott is actually Dr. Clark ... as in Scott Clark, D.Phil. [just as a point of respect to the man] ... I am STILL indifferent to his opinions, they are not the norma normans non normata.
So back to SCRIPTURE:
What EXACTLY is the GIFT (not of yourself) that God gives in Ephesians 2:1-9?
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atpollard
Well-known member
@civic
It is somewhat ironic that you "liked" post #66 as it (the three sources) say what I said in my post ... the GIFT cannot be one of the three candidates ("saved", "grace", "faith") but must be AT LEAST 2 and probably ALL 3. The sources in Post #66 concluded that the GIFT [which is not of yourself] is the whole "By grace ye have been saved through faith."
However, I am STILL a Particular Baptist so I still embrace Sola Scriptura as my norma normans non normata and reject all human authority that attempts to set itself above the Word of God [including Calvin and people with Doctorates from Reformed Seminaries]. It really is a core Baptist thing.
It is somewhat ironic that you "liked" post #66 as it (the three sources) say what I said in my post ... the GIFT cannot be one of the three candidates ("saved", "grace", "faith") but must be AT LEAST 2 and probably ALL 3. The sources in Post #66 concluded that the GIFT [which is not of yourself] is the whole "By grace ye have been saved through faith."
However, I am STILL a Particular Baptist so I still embrace Sola Scriptura as my norma normans non normata and reject all human authority that attempts to set itself above the Word of God [including Calvin and people with Doctorates from Reformed Seminaries]. It really is a core Baptist thing.
The three sources of the many available answered the question in Greek grammatical context, one using other scriptures as examples.
"Steve Baugh, Professor of New Testament at Westminster Seminary California, who, as it happens, has just completed a commentary on Ephesians forthcoming in the Evangelical Exegetical Commentary series. On this clause he writes,
καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, “and this does not originate from you.” There is much popular discussion about the word “τοῦτο” (“this”) and its antecedent in v.8b. It is tempting to take the antecedent as “faith” (i.e., “this faith is not from you “; as Hodge…), even though πίστις (“faith”) is feminine and the demonstrative pronoun is neuter. Grammatically, one could suppose that an abstract idea like “faith” or “believing” could be referenced as neuter, but that would make this rather common construction unnecessarily complicated (cd BDF §131). In Greek, events as a whole are treated as neuter singular things with neuter articles (e.g., το πιστευειν, “believing”), neuter relative pronouns (e.g., Eph. 5:5), or neuter demonstrative pronouns as in v. 8b (also, for example: 6:1; 1 Cor 6:6, 8; Phil 1:22, 28; Col 3:20; 1 Thess 5:18 and 1 Tim 2:1–3). Hence the antecedent of τοῦτο [“this’] is the whole event; “being saved by grace through faith.”
And again from an other reformed source...
"Three key things help determine what the gift from God is:
χάριτί (grace) has a grammatical gender of feminine in Greek.
πίστεως (faith) has a grammatical gender of feminine in Greek.
τοῦτο (this) has a grammatical gender of neuter in Greek.
Greek syntax matches gender of pronouns to the antecedent it refers to.4 So if "this" referred to either grace or faith individually, it should be in the feminine gender—and there is no reason it would not have been had such been the intention. Such a form would be ambiguous, since it could refer to either grace or faith, but likely be referring to the nearest referent, and thus faith.
However, the neuter gender is used for the pronoun. This is the common gender used when a phrase or clause is the antecedent.5 So "this" refers to the whole previous clause, "By grace ye have been saved through faith."6
So this fact expressed by the clause, that only by grace through faith have any who are saved entered into that state of salvation, is a fact that is not something that comes about from oneself, not "of you." Rather, this is an "of God" thing, it is "the gift" of God that such is the way of salvation, by grace through faith.
So the "it" your question refers to is the English added subject of the verbless clause in Greek, which subject is pointing back to the "this" preceding it. Which "this" refers to the entire clause preceding it.
The gift not of yourself is, "By grace ye have been saved through faith.". This is the proper understanding, acceptable grammatically and contextually with what the Apostle Paul was teaching the Ephesian church.
If you want to be sola scriptura like you say, then please stop rejecting the grammetically proper exegeting of a verse by well educated men for the sake of dogmatism and do so for the sake of knowing the truth. Sometimes brother the normal does not apply; and here we are at Ephesians 2:8, where the normal does not apply but the exception to the rule that is grammatically and contextually proper.
As a note: I will not engage in quarreling with you over pettiness. It is beneath us. I ask that we have a civil dialogue in mutual respect of one another by the Spirit and learn from one another.
God Bless
civic
Well-known member
Salvation is from God, faith is man’s.
See below :
Dr. Scott uses a quote from Calvin himself who interprets verse 8 as, "he (Paul) asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us"
atpollard
Well-known member
I owe you an apology. What was intended as more of an explanation probably came cross with a harsher tone in print than it would have in conversation (the limitations of no non-verbal communication).
I prefer to communicate with PEOPLE rather than exchange quotes from outside opinions. I asked what YOU THOUGHT, not what other experts claimed because I was interested in YOUR OPINIONS on exactly what God gave us. I do not disagree with your quoted experts on the Greek, but YOU and I may or may not agree in our understanding of what it GIFT means for us.
God's Blessings back at you
atpollard
Well-known member
norma normans non normata ... John Calvin is not IT!
However, that quote says that WE bring NOTHING to it and GOD gives EVERYTHING ... including faith.
Faith is only "man's" in the sense that God gave faith to men ["as God has allotted to each a measure of faith" Romans 12:3] to enable some to believe, not in the sense of a faith generated from man. Dr Scott Clark and John Calvin are both REFORMED [which is closer to my Particular Baptist monergism than your Free Will Arminian synergism.]
However, for me, they are still not SCRIPTURE, and thus not to be taken as infallible authority. We baptists have no magisterium.
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atpollard
Well-known member
What EXACTLY is the GIFT (not of yourself) that God gives in Ephesians 2:1-9?
(The avoided question is the only one that matters to this conversation. I am asking YOU, not John Calvin ... he is dead and now has the final answer. We are alive where "iron sharpens iron" and we are called to "give an answer for the hope" in us.)
(The avoided question is the only one that matters to this conversation. I am asking YOU, not John Calvin ... he is dead and now has the final answer. We are alive where "iron sharpens iron" and we are called to "give an answer for the hope" in us.)
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
The article said not including faith to which I agreed. Salvation is all God- faith in mans.
Man believes, God saves. God saves the man who believes via His grace.
Rockson
Well-known member
That's need to be defined properly though and that's something Calvinists do not do. First we start off with believing that God is a good God and his word has integrity so what he shares with us in a message we can count on it and be totally confident it's established.
Once God has released his mind and will through his word if you're choosing not to be rebellious you turn that from being not just a confidence of what God will do but you participate in it by choosing to believe which is a verb which means you receive. God does not impart to any one the believing part. It is they which must act and receive.
That scripture has nothing to do with faith for Salvation but it's talking about ministry gifting's. God gives each one the grace to function in them with the empowerment they need to do so.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
atpollard
Well-known member
The article said ...The article said not including faith to which I agreed. Salvation is all God- faith in mans.
Man believes, God saves. God saves the man who believes via His grace.
Dr. Scott uses a quote from Calvin himself who interprets verse 8 as, "he (Paul) asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith. On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man. God declares, that he owes us nothing; so that salvation is not a reward or recompense, but unmixed grace. The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us"
Note the Bolded sentence, and the underlined part in particular.
If, as you claim, we bring faith that comes from US [Let's assume that is true for this post] and as "Dr Scott (Clark) states "NOTHING connected with it (salvation) is our own" [Let's assume that is also true for this post] ... then is that not claiming that FAITH (Our Faith) plays no part in our salvation?
Explain to me what I have misunderstood from your embrace of his quote?
That position seems both contra-intuitive and contra-Scriptural to Ephesians 2:8-9 where faith seems very much integral to the phrase which is the "gift".
Clearly we bring "faith".
Just as clearly, "being saved by grave through faith" is not of ourselves, but is the GIFT of God.
I keep asking ...
HOW CAN THIS BE?
... and people seem willing to address any other point but that one.
[My answer is a simple "as God has allotted to each a measure of faith" - Romans 12:3 ... to which I get a "taint' so" with no real alternative explanation offered.]
so the question remains:
What EXACTLY is the GIFT (not of yourself) that God gives in Ephesians 2:1-9?
atpollard
Well-known member
How is that "not of yourselves" when EVERYTHING depends on man's faith to start the salvation chain reaction?
