The Conflation of the Calvinist

[atpollard]

Brother, I understand. I do the same as well. No apology necessary, and thank you.



The gift of God the Apostle Paul refers to is "by grace ye are having been saved, through faith". He then disqualifies man's efforts of good works by finishing his statement with, "not of works, that no one may boast".

"for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast"

"by grace ye are having been saved, through faith" is God's gift.
"ye are having been saved" is NOT OF YOU, it is not of works, that no one may boast.

So the gift is salvation by God's grace, through faith instead of works, that no one may boast.

God Bless

Does Ephesians 1 or 2 (everything leading up to Eph 2:8-9) indicate that FAITH is part of the gift of salvation from God? Does it indicate that FAITH is not from God? Is Ephesians 1:1 to Ephesians 2:9 SILENT on that specific detail and those seeking an answer should look elsewhere?

What is your opinion on the scope of Ephesians up to 2:9 and the subject of the source of FAITH?
(That seems to be the detail that most Christians are going to disagree over … there are few true Pelagians in the world actively saving themselves and few Hypercalvinists thinking that we really are just puppets. )

 

[praise_yeshua]

Does Ephesians 1 or 2 (everything leading up to Eph 2:8-9) indicate that FAITH is part of the gift of salvation from God? Does it indicate that FAITH is not from God? Is Ephesians 1:1 to Ephesians 2:9 SILENT on that specific detail and those seeking an answer should look elsewhere?

What is your opinion on the scope of Ephesians up to 2:9 and the subject of the source of FAITH?
(That seems to be the detail that most Christians are going to disagree over … there are few true Pelagians in the world actively saving themselves and few Hypercalvinists thinking that we really are just puppets. )

When pushed, all " Calvinists" are "hyper".

Every good and perfect gift comes from above. You might remember those words. God is gracious to all men. Everything humanity has comes from the hand of God.

What do you have that you have not received from another?

 

[Rockson]

So the gift is salvation by God's grace, through faith instead of works, that no one may boast.

And so Calvinists don't get nor appreciate that FAITH IS NOT work keeping by the law. . They assert wrongly that if one merely says they believed and received something by faith that means THEY had something to do with it that connects in some strange way as saying they believe they're saved by the works of the law. The other however don't believe that nor assert that at all but it seems you'll never get them to stop wrongly asserting that. Conclusion: Sadly they keep misapplying the Eph 2:8 verse.

 

[civic]

And so Calvinists don't get nor appreciate that FAITH IS NOT work keeping by the law. . They assert wrongly that if one merely says they believed and received something by faith that means THEY had something to do with it that connects in some strange way as saying they believe they're saved by the works of the law. The other however don't believe that nor assert that at all but it seems you'll never get them to stop wrongly asserting that. Conclusion: Sadly they keep misapplying the Eph 2:8 verse.

ditto

 

[Rockson]

Are you advocating that SALVATION begins in the MIND of men generating belief?

I'd say God initiated a belief about himself and his character by showing his goodness and mercy. The goodness of God leads one to repentance. If you want to see God then look at Jesus, Jesus said I and the Father are one. Now when ones hear the gospel message knowing it came from the same Jesus they're going to have FAITH in the integrity of the message that is unless they choose to suppress the truth.

 

[atpollard]

And so Calvinists don't get nor appreciate that FAITH IS NOT work keeping by the law.

I must not be a Calvinist ... because I get that.
I just believe that when the GIFT of God, which coincidentally is "not of yourself", described in Ephesians 2:8 is "For by grace you have been saved through faith" ... the GIFT includes FAITH.

Works of the Law never entered into my thinking on the subject.
and yet, I still believe “No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44

One of us is confused about what a Calvinist believes. (Fortunately, I am a Particular Baptist who never read John Calvin).

 

[civic]

I must not be a Calvinist ... because I get that.
I just believe that when the GIFT of God, which coincidentally is "not of yourself", described in Ephesians 2:8 is "For by grace you have been saved through faith" ... the GIFT includes FAITH.

Works of the Law never entered into my thinking on the subject.
and yet, I still believe “No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44

One of us is confused about what a Calvinist believes. (Fortunately, I am a Particular Baptist who never read John Calvin).

The text doesn't say faith is the gift. It say salvation is the gift by His grace. Its through faith we receive the gift of salvation by His grace.

Even the calvinist Barnes agrees :

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one;

I pointed out yesterday the Greek number, gender and case does not support faith as the gift.

 

[atpollard]

Its through faith we receive the gift of salvation by His grace.

Yes, but FAITH is still part of the gift. The TEXT says: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," - Ephesians 2:8.

All the experts that I have been needlessly bludgeoned with agree that according to Greek grammar, the gift is "For by grace you have been saved through faith". You alone seek to partition the gift into God's share and man's contribution. I accept the GIFT as the GIFT. All of Ephesians 1 and all of Ephesians 2 leading up to verse 8 are focused on WHAT GOD HAS DONE FOR US with nothing about human contribution to God's amazing gift. To suddenly shift gears and introduce "praise man for bringing HUMAN FAITH TO GOD'S PARTY is antithetical to everything in Ephesians that came before it.

 

[civic]

Yes, but FAITH is still part of the gift. The TEXT says: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," - Ephesians 2:8.

All the experts that I have been needlessly bludgeoned with agree that according to Greek grammar, the gift is "For by grace you have been saved through faith". You alone seek to partition the gift into God's share and man's contribution. I accept the GIFT as the GIFT. All of Ephesians 1 and all of Ephesians 2 leading up to verse 8 are focused on WHAT GOD HAS DONE FOR US with nothing about human contribution to God's amazing gift. To suddenly shift gears and introduce "praise man for bringing HUMAN FAITH TO GOD'S PARTY is antithetical to everything in Ephesians that came before it.

Let me help you with parenthesis below.


For by grace you have been saved (saved by grace )

through faith ( the means by which we are saved by His grace )

and that not of yourselves ( salvation is by grace, not from yourself );

it ( salvation by grace )is the gift of God,"

 

[atpollard]

it ( salvation by grace )is the gift of God,"

That is not what “Dr Scott” said the gift was.
So your OPINION is noted, but not particularly helpful in this case.

The parsing of the Gift is strictly your own.

 

[civic]

That is not what “Dr Scott” said the gift was.
So your OPINION is noted, but not particularly helpful in this case.

The parsing of the Gift is strictly your own.

appealing to authority fallacy. nope I proved it with the number, gender and case in the Greek.

 

[atpollard]

appealing to authority fallacy.

He was not MY authority. (Remember my diatribe about being a Baptist?)

nope I proved it with the number, gender and case in the Greek.

Technically, you merely stated it without ever really explaining it [if I remember correctly].

See here …

You did read the Greek regarding number, gender and case with pisteo right ?

salvation , grace and this are nominative and faith is genitive,

(I went and looked up Ephesians 2:8 … your statement is not even correct.)

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The text doesn't say faith is the gift. It say salvation is the gift by His grace. Its through faith we receive the gift of salvation by His grace.

Even the calvinist Barnes agrees :

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one;

I pointed out yesterday the Greek number, gender and case does not support faith as the gift.

The text refers to the whole thing. The gift is "are having been saved through faith".

 

[atpollard]

Even the calvinist Barnes agrees :

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one;

I pointed out yesterday the Greek number, gender and case does not support faith as the gift.

It seems curious that I keep getting PROOFS that Faith alone is not the GIFT in Ephesians 2:8 when I have NEVER EVER claimed or believed that FAITH alone was the GIFT. What would be more helpful is just one expert in Greek grammar that states Ephesians 2:8 describes “saved by grace” as a gift from God in response to “the faith that Men first provide”. That would be at least ONE expert that says what you twist the gift into from my claim that God DOES IT ALL! God saves through God’s Grace using God given faith all of which is a Gift from God (and not of ourselves).

However, no matter how many times you refute it … I will still never have claimed that Faith alone is the gift.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

The text doesn't say faith is the gift. It say salvation is the gift by His grace. Its through faith we receive the gift of salvation by His grace.

Even the calvinist Barnes agrees :

And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one;

I pointed out yesterday the Greek number, gender and case does not support faith as the gift.

Barnes is off here. Neither "salvation" nor "saved" are neuter. So there's no match, there, either. That's why "that" refers to the whole thing, "are having been saved through faith".

 

[civic]

Barnes is off here. Neither "salvation" nor "saved" are neuter. So there's no match, there, either. That's why "that" refers to the whole thing, "are having been saved through faith".

Both this and saved are nominitive and match and faith is genitive. So once again proving you are incorrect.

Greek
For [it is]
γὰρ (gar)
Conjunction
Strong's 1063: For. A primary particle; properly, assigning a reason.

by grace
χάριτί (chariti)
Noun - Dative Feminine Singular
Strong's 5485: From chairo; graciousness, of manner or act.

you have been
ἐστε (este)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 1510: I am, exist. The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist.

saved
σεσῳσμένοι (sesōsmenoi)
Verb - Perfect Participle Middle or Passive - Nominative Masculine Plural
Strong's 4982: To save, heal, preserve, rescue. From a primary sos; to save, i.e. Deliver or protect.

through
διὰ (dia)
Preposition
Strong's 1223: A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through.

faith,
πίστεως (pisteōs)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's 4102: Faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

and
καὶ (kai)
Conjunction
Strong's 2532: And, even, also, namely.

this
τοῦτο (touto)
Demonstrative Pronoun - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3778: This; he, she, it.

not
οὐκ (ouk)
Adverb
Strong's 3756: No, not. Also ouk, and ouch a primary word; the absolute negative adverb; no or not.

from
ἐξ (ex)
Preposition
Strong's 1537: From out, out from among, from, suggesting from the interior outwards. A primary preposition denoting origin, from, out.

yourselves;
ὑμῶν (hymōn)
Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 2nd Person Plural
Strong's 4771: You. The person pronoun of the second person singular; thou.

[it is] the
τὸ (to)
Article - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 3588: The, the definite article. Including the feminine he, and the neuter to in all their inflections; the definite article; the.

gift
δῶρον (dōron)
Noun - Nominative Neuter Singular
Strong's 1435: A gift, present. A present; specially, a sacrifice.

of God,
Θεοῦ (Theou)
Noun - Genitive Masculine Singular
Strong's 2316: A deity, especially the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very.

 

[atpollard]

Both this and saved are nominitive and match and faith is genitive.

Can you find an expert that says this?
I only question it because nominative vs generative in ENGLISH does not carry the link you claim it does in Greek. Nominitive nouns are just "the subject" (the BOOK is old) and a genetive noun simply modifies the subject (HIS book is old). So does anyone else say that "His" and "Book" have two different sources ["by grace" and "through faith" in the case of Ephesians 2:8]? (Barnes did not say that. Barnes only said that Faith alone was not the gift.)

I am willing to accept it if TRUE, but I require more than your claim that they are not both the SUBJECT of the sentence [which is true] as proof that they are not both "gifts from God" ... since we know God CAN and DOES give faith in at least SOME cases.

 

[Rockson]

I just believe that when the GIFT of God, which coincidentally is "not of yourself", described in Ephesians 2:8 is "For by grace you have been saved through faith" ... the GIFT includes FAITH.

Well the Bible says you can't believe without a preacher and God has given the preacher the message as a ministry gift to the world. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but just because the word or the message of God has the ability to impart faith doesn't mean a person won't suppress and resist the faith God is seeking to impart. In your way of thinking you're holding that if one is provided FAITH you're saying one can't resist and suppress the knowledge of God which imparts it.

 

[atpollard]

Well the Bible says you can't believe without a preacher and God has given the preacher the message as a ministry gift to the world. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God but just because the word or the message of God has the ability to impart faith doesn't mean a person won't suppress and resist the faith God is seeking to impart. In your way of thinking you're holding that if one is provided FAITH you're saying one can't resist and suppress the knowledge of God which imparts it.

Yup. That is what I am saying.

Romans 1 says that the knowledge of God is imparted to all men (even pagans that never hear the Gospel from ANY preacher) and that leaves them "without excuse" when they reject God ... as Romans 3 says ALL MEN do. Thus the description of us as "dead" and "children of wrath" in the opening verses of Ephesians 2 and the desperate need for a GIFT if we are to be saved "yet while we were (spiritually) dead".

So that really IS what I believe.
... and because I am a Baptist and believe in SOUL LIBERTY (people answer to God, not to other men), I offer you complete freedom to accept or reject my beliefs and to follow YOUR conscience where God leads YOU [with my complete blessings].

 

[civic]

Yup. That is what I am saying.

Romans 1 says that the knowledge of God is imparted to all men (even pagans that never hear the Gospel from ANY preacher) and that leaves them "without excuse" when they reject God ... as Romans 3 says ALL MEN do. Thus the description of us as "dead" and "children of wrath" in the opening verses of Ephesians 2 and the desperate need for a GIFT if we are to be saved "yet while we were (spiritually) dead".

So that really IS what I believe.
... and because I am a Baptist and believe in SOUL LIBERTY (people answer to God, not to other men), I offer you complete freedom to accept or reject my beliefs and to follow YOUR conscience where God leads YOU [with my complete blessings].

So you agree Gods grace extends to all men, everyone, everywhere correct ?