civic
Well-known member
correct and augustine got them from the gnostics, pagans, greek philosophers of his day and married them with Christianity.
The Calvinists misunderstanding of the New Birth as taught by Jesus to Nicodemus
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
brightfame52
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man by nature doesnt seek God Rom3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. God must give a new nature, regeneration, thats Grace
Johann
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
the context is that all are under sin which is Pauls point.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man by nature doesnt seek God Rom3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. God must give a new nature, regeneration, thats Grace. Who write Rom 3:11 ?
brightfame52
Well-known member
Selected right from the word of God and highlighted.
Johann
Well-known member
You don't debate, just quote selective verses!
God's Righteousness Upheld
Rom 3:1 Then what is the advantage of the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Great in every respect. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God [His very words]. [Psa_147:19]
Rom 3:3 What then? If some did not believe or were unfaithful [to God], their lack of belief will not nullify and make invalid the faithfulness of God and His word, will it?
Rom 3:4 Certainly not! Let God be found true [as He will be], though every person be found a liar, just as it is written [in Scripture], "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED [by sinful men]." [Psa_51:4]
Rom 3:5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? God is not wrong to inflict His wrath [on us], is He? (I am speaking in purely human terms.)
Rom 3:6 Certainly not! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
Rom 3:7 But [as you might say] if through my lie God's truth was magnified and abounded to His glory, why am I still being judged as a sinner?
Rom 3:8 And why not say, (as some slanderously report and claim that we teach) "Let us do evil so that good may come of it"? Their condemnation [by God] is just.
No One Is Righteous
Rom 3:9 Well then, are we [Jews] better off than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks (Gentiles) are under the control of sin and subject to its power.
Rom 3:10 As it is written and forever remains written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS [none that meets God's standard], NOT EVEN ONE. [Psa_14:3]
Rom 3:11 "THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD. [Psa_14:2]
Rom 3:12 "ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, NO, NOT ONE." [Psa_53:1-3]
Rom 3:13 "THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE; THEY [habitually] DECEIVE WITH THEIR TONGUES." "THE VENOM OF ASPS IS BENEATH THEIR LIPS." [Psa_5:9; Psa_140:3]
Rom 3:14 "THEIR MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS." [Psa_10:7]
Rom 3:15 "THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
Rom 3:16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
Rom 3:17 AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN THE PATH OF PEACE." [Isa_59:7-8]
Rom 3:18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD [and His awesome power] BEFORE THEIR EYES." [Psa_36:1]
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law [of Moses] says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the excuses of] every mouth may be silenced [from protesting] and that all the world may be held accountable to God [and subject to His judgment].
Rom 3:20 For no person will be justified [freed of guilt and declared righteous] in His sight by [trying to do] the works of the Law. For through the Law we become conscious of sin [and the recognition of sin directs us toward repentance, but provides no remedy for sin].
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been clearly revealed [independently and completely] apart from the Law, though it is [actually] confirmed by the Law and the [words and writings of the] Prophets.
Rom 3:22 This righteousness of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [Jew or Gentile] who believe [and trust in Him and acknowledge Him as God's Son]. There is no distinction, [1Co_12:13; Gal_3:28]
Rom 3:23 since all have sinned and continually fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are being justified [declared free of the guilt of sin, made acceptable to God, and granted eternal life] as a gift by His [precious, undeserved] grace, through the redemption [the payment for our sin] which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus' crucifixion].
Rom 3:26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus [and rely confidently on Him as Savior].
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that an individual is justified by faith distinctly apart from works of the Law [the observance of which has nothing to do with justification, that is, being declared free of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God].
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not also the God of Gentiles [who were not given the Law]? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed it is one [and the same] God who will justify the circumcised by faith [which began with Abraham] and the uncircumcised through [their newly acquired] faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law by this faith [making the Law of no effect, overthrowing it]? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law [since it convicts us all of sin, pointing to the need for salvation].
AMP.
I'm NOT denying this! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Early Church Fathers (ECFs) prior to Augustine held a diverse range of views on free will and its relationship to God’s grace. While they affirmed the necessity of divine grace for salvation, many also maintained that humans possessed the freedom to choose or reject God’s invitation. Their perspectives reflect a balance between divine sovereignty and human responsibility, though they differed in emphasis. Below are key writings on the ability of human free will to respond to God:
1. Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD)
Justin strongly affirmed human free will while acknowledging God's role in providing grace and revelation.
Quote:
“We have learned from the prophets and declare that punishment and chastisement and good rewards are given according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it were not so, and all things happened by fate, nothing would be left to our own power. For neither would one be praised as good nor another be blamed as evil unless it were in their power to do either.” (First Apology, Chapter 43).
Relevance: Justin emphasizes that humans have the ability to choose good or evil, implying that a response to God’s grace is within the scope of human free will. However, grace is necessary for humans to know the truth of God.
2. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
Irenaeus teaches that free will is integral to human nature and that God works to persuade, not coerce, humans into responding to Him.
Quote:
“But as it was in man’s power to disobey, so it is now in his power to obey, by his free will, and by God’s assistance.” (Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 37).
Relevance: Irenaeus affirms that human beings have the freedom to obey God, but this ability is dependent on God’s assistance (grace), which enables obedience and response.
3. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150–215 AD)
Clement supports the concept that free will allows humans to choose salvation, but only because God provides them with grace and instruction.
Quote:
“It is in our power to choose to follow what is good; but the choice of what is good is the work of God’s grace, which goes before and assists us.” (Stromata, Book 2, Chapter 4).
Relevance: Clement balances free will with God’s grace, stating that grace initiates and enables the human response, but the individual retains the responsibility to choose good.
4. Origen (c. 185–254 AD)
Origen emphasized the coexistence of free will and grace, teaching that God’s assistance does not override human choice.
Quote:
“The freedom of the will is clearly defined in the Scriptures… but it is also clear that the mind needs help from God in choosing what is good, so that it may turn its freedom in the right direction.” (De Principiis, Book 3, Chapter 1).
Relevance: Origen upholds free will but stresses that divine help (grace) is necessary for humans to choose rightly and respond to God.
5. Tertullian (c. 155–220 AD)
Tertullian was a strong advocate for free will, seeing it as a gift from God that allows humans to either respond to or reject Him.
Quote:
“I find that man was constituted free by God, endowed with power to act by his own will and judgment… God sets before man good and evil, life and death, and he may choose whichever he pleases.” (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5).
Relevance: Tertullian affirms that humans have genuine freedom to choose their response to God, but this freedom operates within the context of divine revelation and moral responsibility.
6. Lactantius (c. 250–325 AD)
Lactantius confirms that free will is essential for genuine faith and moral accountability, yet God’s guidance is necessary for humans to choose what is right.
Quote:
“For the very fact that God has given man freedom of will shows that He wishes man not to be constrained to accept righteousness, but to choose it willingly.” (Divine Institutes, Book 5, Chapter 12).
Relevance: Lactantius highlights the voluntary nature of a response to God, portraying grace as the enabler but not the coercer of human will.
Summary
The Early Church Fathers consistently affirmed free will, teaching that humans have the capacity to respond to God’s grace. However, they emphasized that this response is only possible because of God’s grace, which initiates, enlightens, and empowers. Their writings show that:
1. Grace is necessary for humans to recognize truth and turn toward God.
2. Free will is real and preserved, allowing humans to accept or reject God’s grace.
3. The interplay between grace and free will upholds both divine sovereignty and human responsibility.
These perspectives diverge from later Augustinian and Calvinistic emphases on total depravity and irresistible grace, maintaining instead a more synergistic view of salvation.
What say you @brightfame52?
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Jay
Member
But only for Calvinists as Unconditional election is not biblical.
1. God Wants Everyone to Be Saved
In Matthew 11:28 Jesus says, “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Are we to believe that Jesus is offering us something He has already decided not to give us?
Then there’s my favorite, 2 Peter 3:9, which says God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” This is the revealed will of God—that God wants all men everywhere to repent and be saved. I do not need to understand God’s secret will; I need to understand the conditions of His revealed will.
2. God Wants Everyone to Be Saved through Faith
Faith is the condition for salvation. Once God sees faith, He counts it as righteousness. When we place our faith in Christ, God imputes Christ’s righteousness to us.
3. God Gave Everyone the Ability to Respond to Grace and Be Saved
First John 2:2 tells us Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” It is the revealed will of God that He wants all men to respond; but not all will respond. Who then are the elect? Those who respond.
So before there is predestination there is foreknowledge: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied” (1 Peter 1:2). Before God elected us, He had foreknowledge of us—He knew that we would meet the conditions of salvation.
Although much more could be said about each of these points and many other points not raised here, the Bible is very clear that God wants every person to be saved through faith in Him. If the teaching of unconditional election were true, then God’s Word would be in error. I will go with God’s Word every time.
From Ministry127
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Johann
I have already said, pay attention. Since man by nature doesnt seek God Rom 3:11 he needs to be born anew with another spiritual nature to seek the True God, and thats Grace. Grace saves a dead sinner and gives him or her new life Eph 2:1-5
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
I have already said, pay attention. Since man by nature doesnt seek God Rom 3:11 he needs to be born anew with another spiritual nature to seek the True God, and thats Grace. Grace saves a dead sinner and gives him or her new life Eph 2:1-5
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Johann
Well-known member
I have No problem with the Scriptures-but your interpretation of them.
You are steel manning my reading of the text and the onus is on you to provide your exegesis of the text.
J.
brightfame52
Well-known member
brightfame52
Well-known member
Thats fine, I believe God has given me understanding on the matter, and to you He has not
Johann
Well-known member
Act 17:27 says God is near every one of us.
Acts 17:27 (KJV) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, *though he be not far from every one of us*:
Man doesn't seek not necessarily because they can't, but because their access to God was blocked, starting in the garden, and their hearts became hardened. ...
Genesis 3:24 (KJV) So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
But prevenient grace partially unblocks the path and shows them that there is another way out and thus some seek, till the full revelation comes.
Romans 3:21 (KJV) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Romans 3:22 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Romans 3:23 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
brightfame52
Well-known member
Man by nature doesnt seek God and cant! Rom3:11
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. God must give a new nature, regeneration, thats Grace
charismaticlady
Active member
I was in church for 30 years before being born again of the Spirit. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is a key part of the New Birth which many never receive. There is head knowledge but not heart knowledge. This is why Jesus said we MUST be born again. It is of the Holy Spirit; it is not something we just believe with no evidence.
cc: @brightfame52
