Moses and Jesus taught free will

[makesends]

You've clearly stated that the "facts" that you're reference are the ONLY choice. Which would = God has predetermined your bowel movements.

I use this as a reference in an attempt to get you realize how silly such arguments are. Your position requires God to predetermine exactly when you CHOSE to relieve yourself. Remember.... only ONE outcome. Please be consistent with your own claims.

I'm being consistent and have been consistent. Not only does God predetermine when I relieve myself, he predetermined how I chose to do so. Therefore, only one outcome was possible. He even decreed your continuing waste of electron activity.

No. I presented you a choice. I established a ridiculous contrast. No one can possibly believe that God predetermined your bowel movements. Yet, that is the argument you're making. We need to the find the edges of your belief. You are correct, I could say more. However, I have chosen this example because Elijah made pretty much the same argument against the prophets of Baal. I was trying to indirectly....."shake your memory"......

I'm not God. I didn't predetermine your mistake.

You are dead wrong. "No one can possibly believe that God predetermined your bowel movements."? I believe it. Do you honestly believe that they happen by chance?

That primary cause don't determine your choice. This "choice" you demand as being the only viable outcome becomes rather silly relative to such nonsense as when you decide to use the bathroom.

The primary cause, "First Cause" —i.e. God— does indeed logically necessarily cause all subsequent causes and effects.

To everything there is a season. Any system relative to Determinism requires "timing".

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

What you fail to realize is that "seasons" add variability to the equation. God has defined boundaries and established limits. Man operates freely within those boundaries of these "seasons".

Timing? Oh my, yes! God is amazingly wise.

How does the introduction of the notion, that "to everything there is a season", help your position? If anything, it adds to the evidence of causation! You say, it adds variability. No, it only adds variation.

 

[civic]

There is no cat. It only exists in YOUR mind and those you decide to share the delusion with.

Man can do anything in his own mind. They call it "fiction". You're establishing an imaginary idol of god in your mind with such "thought experiments". Also, don't pretend you understand "quantum mechanics". You've simply appealed to the limitation of your own mind's ability to believe God.

Notice a philosophical argument void of Scripture. How convenient. Sounds just like augustines arguments from where determinism originates from- his learning under the pagans, stoics, Platonism, Gnosctics, Manichean and Greek Philosophy. The origins of Divine Determinism that was incorporated into the church under augustine, the catholic.

 

[makesends]

A question that deserves an answer.

When you make a mistake...... is it God that predetermined the outcome or YOU living in your own depraved mind? Don't try to tell me that you don't have a battle between your mind and the mind of Christ raging in your own being/body.

This is proof of what you're saying isn't true. We know from the Scriptures that one is contrary to other. You're insisting that they are complimentary.

We know better.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This is proof of God's plan. Conflict.

Yes, when I make any mistake, God has predetermined that I do so. Whether or not it is also me living in my depraved mind in no way defeats what God has determined concerning me, and concerning every detail that my decisions affect. Of course there is a battle going on between 'the old man' and the mind of Christ raging in my being —just as God predetermined that there be.

What is it, that you're saying I claim are complementary, but that are not? Yes, the flesh and the Spirit are contrary to one another —JUST AS GOD HAS PREDETERMINED. HELLO!

You keep acting as though our POV is valid. We know next to nothing, and our temporal human POV necessarily runs short of facts, not to mention being skewed. We actually have the gall to think that since we don't know what a fact is, that it is up to chance. Self-contradictory foolishness!

 

[makesends]

Strong delusion that you believe a lie and be damned.....Does that come to mind? Just curious how you establish the application of such things in realty?

We do by the Scriptures.

It would seem you tend to agree with me here....

You seem to invoke contradiction, here. You, like me, seem to think Schrödinger's Cat is foolishness, yet you still admit to mere chance, which is also foolishness, and is what Schrödinger's cat depends on.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, when I make any mistake, God has predetermined that I do so. Whether or not it is also me living in my depraved mind in no way defeats what God has determined concerning me, and concerning every detail that my decisions affect. Of course there is a battle going on between 'the old man' and the mind of Christ raging in my being —just as God predetermined that there be.

What is it, that you're saying I claim are complementary, but that are not? Yes, the flesh and the Spirit are contrary to one another —JUST AS GOD HAS PREDETERMINED. HELLO!

So God desires that you both win and lose that battle?

You keep acting as though our POV is valid. We know next to nothing, and our temporal human POV necessarily runs short of facts, not to mention being skewed. We actually have the gall to think that since we don't know what a fact is, that it is up to chance. Self-contradictory foolishness!

I'm referencing God's point of view found in the Scriptures. That is why I know that you're wrong.

Like I referenced previously. You are the one that referenced "don't know".... Yet, you insist that we do. I wish you would stop doing this. Either we do or we don't.

 

[atpollard]

Frankly, from my POV, anyway, "Schrödinger's cat" is silly. To me, if that is the basis of Quantum Theory, then Quantum Theory also makes no sense. The obvious fact that only one 'possibility' is truly possible, though WE don't know which, is what it is quite apart from our measurement of it. And the "branching off" theory (see, "Back To The Future") is only speculation. No evidence at all.

It exists in ELECTRON Shells as a measurable reality. A chemist applied the observation to his understanding of the Trinity. There exists a molecule that has 5 electrons in its outer shell spread between THREE distinct lobes. Electrons naturally form bonding pairs between the four atoms (1 in the center and 3 surrounding it sharing an electron pair. It is possible to measure the electrical charge in one of the "lobes" and determine whether at any instant that lobe has two electrons (one of the pairs) or 1 electron (the 5th unpaired electron). When the charge is measured experimentally, each lobe has exactly 1.666667 electrons. No lobe has two and no lobe has one. The electrons are in all places simultaneously ... both THERE and NOT THERE at the same time.

So the QUANTUM phenomenon is real.
"Back to the Future" ... not so much. Those are more like the cat in the box, they only exist as a "theoretical possibility". You cannot actually DO something other than what you will DO [or that would not be "what you will do", it would be "what you will not do"]. There are an infinite number of things that I will not do [Like choose to live a sinless life by the power of my human will.]

 

[praise_yeshua]

You seem to invoke contradiction, here. You, like me, seem to think Schrödinger's Cat is foolishness, yet you still admit to mere chance, which is also foolishness, and is what Schrödinger's cat depends on.

We agree on the foolishness part. Which is why I discount it's relevance.

 

[atpollard]

Also, don't pretend you understand "quantum mechanics".

I was a Mathematical Philosophy Major ... would you like to discuss Zeno's Paradoxes on Motion or Alfred Whitehead's On Process and Reality or Max Black and his Infinity Machines?

 

[atpollard]

I was a Mathematical Philosophy Major ... would you like to discuss Zeno's Paradoxes on Motion or Alfred Whitehead's On Process and Reality or Max Black and his Infinity Machines?

I am particularly fond of "Achilles and the Tortoise" [Zeno].

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm being consistent and have been consistent. Not only does God predetermine when I relieve myself, he predetermined how I chose to do so. Therefore, only one outcome was possible. He even decreed your continuing waste of electron activity.

I reject such nonsense. Hold it till you burst. God has nothing to do with it. There is no Universe changing impact relative to your choice to hold it or not. You actions does not change God. It has nothing to do with God. Which is why God doesn't care and isn't involved.

You are dead wrong. "No one can possibly believe that God predetermined your bowel movements."? I believe it. Do you honestly believe that they happen by chance?

It is relegated to "chance" due to YOUR inconsistency with timing. Who knows when you're going to decide to do it.

The primary cause, "First Cause" —i.e. God— does indeed logically necessarily cause all subsequent causes and effects.

Nonsense. I can push a huge rock over a cliff and God can supernaturally make it disappear. I have the power to push the rock and let natural gravity progress. God has the ability to stop it all. Which is why I've continually stated that God sets boundaries and defines limits. What you do is up to you within those boundaries. I've understood your position from the beginning. I've understood it for decades. The lack of understand is with you not understanding the Scriptures. I base my position upon the Scriptures.

Timing? Oh my, yes! God is amazingly wise.

Seasons. Not the oscillation of atoms. Seasons are broad boundaries.

How does the introduction of the notion, that "to everything there is a season", help your position? If anything, it adds to the evidence of causation! You say, it adds variability. No, it only adds variation.

Man has limited freewill. He operates freely in his own mind. Often he does not have the power to establish his own. At times he does.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I was a Mathematical Philosophy Major ... would you like to discuss Zeno's Paradoxes on Motion or Alfred Whitehead's On Process and Reality or Max Black and his Infinity Machines?

Fatal misconception.....

Have you ever watched the "The day the earth stood still"? Do you remember how Reeves dealt with the equation on the board with Dr. Barnhardt?

Our mathematics are fundamentally flawed. It is why we can't do much more than die trying to prove ourselves right.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I was a Mathematical Philosophy Major ... would you like to discuss Zeno's Paradoxes on Motion or Alfred Whitehead's On Process and Reality or Max Black and his Infinity Machines?

Math is for computers. Mathematics is only good relative to repeatability. I've designed and built systems for a very long time. Our minds are not capable of doing much than pretending.

On the rare occasion, with God's help, our minds meet reality. Knowing the difference.... is often difficult. You should have realized that by now.

 

[atpollard]

“Creativity is the residue of time wasted.”​

- Albert Einstein

 

[atpollard]

“I have learned this at least by my experiment: that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”

- Henry David Thoreau

 

[atpollard]

“We find out soon enough that the universe is not capricious: the child who learns that fire burns and knife-edges cut know that there are inexorable limits set upon his desires. Language must conform to the discovered regularities and irregularities of experience.”

- Max Black (mathematician and philosopher)

 

[atpollard]

“The aim of science is to seek the simplest explanations of complex facts. We are apt to fall into the error of thinking that the facts are simple because simplicity is the goal of our quest. The guiding motto in the life of every natural philosopher should be, ’Seek simplicity and distrust it.’"

-Alfred Whitehead (Process and Reality)

 

[Rockson]

“The aim of science is to seek the simplest explanations of complex facts.

Too bad they don't do that.

 

[Rockson]

“We find out soon enough that the universe is not capricious: the child who learns that fire burns and knife-edges cut know that there are inexorable limits set upon his desires.

His parents might give him a spanking too. Oh I forgot. Not allowed to do that anymore.

Language must conform to the discovered regularities and irregularities of experience.”

Wondering why a smart guy choses to talk that way.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Too bad they don't do that.

See: Dark matter.

 

[makesends]

I reject such nonsense. Hold it till you burst. God has nothing to do with it. There is no Universe changing impact relative to your choice to hold it or not. You actions does not change God. It has nothing to do with God. Which is why God doesn't care and isn't involved.



It is relegated to "chance" due to YOUR inconsistency with timing. Who knows when you're going to decide to do it.



Nonsense. I can push a huge rock over a cliff and God can supernaturally make it disappear. I have the power to push the rock and let natural gravity progress. God has the ability to stop it all. Which is why I've continually stated that God sets boundaries and defines limits. What you do is up to you within those boundaries. I've understood your position from the beginning. I've understood it for decades. The lack of understand is with you not understanding the Scriptures. I base my position upon the Scriptures.



Seasons. Not the oscillation of atoms. Seasons are broad boundaries.



Man has limited freewill. He operates freely in his own mind. Often he does not have the power to establish his own. At times he does.

I see no argument here. Only assertions. And your continuing declaration of independence from God's control. All hail self-determination!