The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel

[Red Baker]

@Joe

All means all. It does not mean some.

Greeting Joe,

Please consider:

John 12:32​

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Joe, we allow the scriptures to drive its interpretation for us by comparing scriptures with scriptures. All in this scriptures means all without distinction, not all without exception for we know that God has from the beginning made exceptions. In the OT, God was the God of the Jews ONLY, for the most part, not the God of the Egyptians, or any of the seven nations that Israel drove out when they took the promise land.

Now since Christ's death, he is not only the God of the elect Jews, but also has an election of grace among the Gentiles nations.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Again, in the OT, God was the God of the Jews only, and even among them only the children of His promises.

Romans 9:8​

“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Galatians 4:28​

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

Brother Joe, the ones that Jesus is drawing unto him are the children of God's promises to him, and "no" others, yet everyone of them!

 

[civic]

That makes absolutely no sense. Everyone is lost until they are saved.

never heard that one before, thats a new one lol.

 

[civic]

Brother, do you know what reading into the text means? If you did, you would not be denying that you are doing it. What makes you any different from the Catholic who reads purgatory into the text? Both you and the Catholic are interpreting text by injecting your own ideas and biases into it, rather than allowing the text to speak for itself.

There is zero implication by our Lord that He meant some when He said all, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

His statement was not about election, as you read into it, but inclusiveness that Jews and Gentiles will come to Him.

He is telling the Jewish people that He is going to die on a cross. They understood from the Law that the Messiah was to reign forever, so they asked Him how could He say He was going to die. (ref, JN 12:34)

We know from the scriptures that the Gentiles are included in God's salvation of man. Such as promised in Isaiah 11:10, "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious."

All means all. It does not mean some.

God Bless

spot on brother

 

[Joe]

It rarely means all without exception . Honest Bible study proves that

I don't disagree.

Perhaps you missed who the "all" means. I will state it again, "His statement was not about election, as you read into it, but inclusiveness that Jews and Gentiles will come to Him."

He will not only draw the Jewish people but Gentiles too. The collective of all drawn will be Jews and Gentiles.

Now, the "all" without exception is Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." There is zero doubt that the context is each man, every man, everyone....this of course disproves Calvinism, as according to Calvinism, the Lord only died for His elect. When I was a hyper-Calvinist, I tried to make the passage work within the framework of the doctrine, but there was no "true" way that I could. The average Calvinist doesn't like to bring it up because it is a stumbling stone when taken at face value.

The passage that coincides with John 12:32 is John 3:14-15, and it has an exception of "believes in Him".

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever-all those who believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." (Joh 3:14-15)

Our Lord Jesus Christ is saying in John 12:32, the collective of all drawn will be Jews and Gentiles. And in John 3:14-15, we now know that of the collective drawn of Jews and Gentiles, those who believe in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Historically, we know that Jews and Gentiles have been preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, whereby they are induced to come to believe in Jesus Christ. And of those induced, only those who believe in Him has eternal life.,

Brother, there is no mentioning or implication of "elect" in the text.

God Bless

 

[brightfame52]

I don't disagree

Okay then, that is my point.

 

[Joe]

Okay then, that is my point.

Brother, it is easy to get lost in all the dialogues one holds. I gently tell you, it was not your point.

Your point was that "all men" meant "All the elect". (Link to post)

After debating your interpretation with another poster, you stated, "The word elect does not have to be there it's understood".
(Link to post)

I then stated to you, "You are reading elect into the text". In which you replied, "No I'm not, it's in agreement with scripture".
(Link to post)

I then replied, "There is zero implication by our Lord that He meant some when He said all, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

His statement was not about election, as you read into it, but inclusiveness that Jews and Gentiles will come to Him."
(Link to post)

So, your point is "all men" means the elect. And my point is "all men" in this particular passage refers to meaning Jews as well as Gentiles, not exclusively just the Jews. This of course was unacceptable to the Jewish people since us Gentiles were considered as dogs.

The exception in John 12:32 does not mean elect. It means the scope of His death in general terms includes all of humanity.

And as already pointed out to you, there is no exception in Heb 2:9 "that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." The wording in Greek is used in the absolute sense that our Lord Jesus Christ experienced death absolutely for everyone.

I have made my point.

God Bless

 

[brightfame52]

Your point was that "all men" meant "All the elect". (Link to post)

My point is that the words all and world doesn't mean all without exception many times biblically . It takes biblical analysis and context to determine the meaning

 

[Joe]

My point is that the words all and world doesn't mean all without exception many times biblically . It takes biblical analysis and context to determine the meaning

And that is where we agree, but the actual debate is about the application of "all" in John 12:32, where you interpret it as "All the elect" and that is not contextual true to what our Lord was stating. That is reading one's dogma into the text.

I have made my point.

God Bless

 

[Joe]

@Joe

Greeting Joe,

Please consider:

John 12:32​

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Joe, we allow the scriptures to drive its interpretation for us by comparing scriptures with scriptures. All in this scriptures means all without distinction, not all without exception for we know that God has from the beginning made exceptions. In the OT, God was the God of the Jews ONLY, for the most part, not the God of the Egyptians, or any of the seven nations that Israel drove out when they took the promise land.

Now since Christ's death, he is not only the God of the elect Jews, but also has an election of grace among the Gentiles nations.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Again, in the OT, God was the God of the Jews only, and even among them only the children of His promises.

Romans 9:8​

“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Galatians 4:28​

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

Brother Joe, the ones that Jesus is drawing unto him are the children of God's promises to him, and "no" others, yet everyone of them!

Hello brother,

I refer you to my post to another brother. (Link to post)

God Bless

 

[brightfame52]

And that is where we agree,

Okay so that is my point. And yes the all in Jn 12:32 I believe means all the elect or Sheep since Jesus specified who He was lifted up for in Jn 10 and in Jn 6:37 all is all the Father gives Him, jew and gentile elect or Sheep

 

[Whosoever]

The news about God is good because God’s character is good. If He was not a good God, then there would be no such thing as good news because there would be no motive for Him to provide salvation. The news brought to us through the Scripture is that our God is a loving Creator and Ruler who would rather show mercy than justice toward undeserving sinners.

God has provided the means of salvation for all people, at all times, and in all places, not because He has to, but because He is good, and that truth is the very heart of what we call the gospel. Mankind is not left to be slaves to what sin and death bring – judgment and wrath. Every single morally accountable person has, at some point, the opportunity to be reconciled to God.

 

[Whosoever]

As soon as you hear the truth of the gospel, something begins to happen within you—something not from yourself, but from God. God quickens your spirit and begins persuading you to believe, causing you to desire to believe. It is possible to perceive the contents of the Gospel without believing the Gospel, to hear the Gospel without responding to it.

I have seen people attend our church for years before becoming Christians even though they have heard and understood or perceived the Gospel on an intellectual basis. They just never asked or aloud Jesus to be Lord of their lives.

 

[civic]

Which is one of the MASSIVE PROBLEMS in the church!!! BIBLICAL Faith has a VERY Specific definition (Heb 11:1), and a VERY Specific source (Rom 10:17). I'm completely aware that the word "FAITH" is applied to any number of things that have nothing to do with Biblical FAITH. A "Denomination" is not a "FAITH" it's nothing but a Religious / Theological system which may or may not have any foundation in the truth. Mental assent is not FAITH, since it's based on nothing other that how you feel at the time, and has no substance you can rely on.

Even the Biblical word rendered "Believe" is loaded and includes Hearing, Understanding, and Obeying - way past common English understanding of the word.

I agree faith in not mere belief or mental assent- it involves the entire person, mind,soul,spirit,will etc.... Like in you shall love the Lord your God with all of your mind, heart, soul, strength.

 

[brightfame52]

- it involves the entire person, mind,soul,spirit,will etc.... Like in you shall love the Lord your God with all of your mind, heart, soul, strength.

And do you believe the unregenerate in the flesh is qualified for this ?

 

[civic]

And do you believe the unregenerate in the flesh is qualified for this ?

of course they do otherwise God would not of made that the 1st commandment. No one was born again in the OT and all were in the flesh with the choice to serve and obey God or not. Choose this day whom you will serve !!!!

next fallacy

 

[brightfame52]

of course they do otherwise God would not of made that the 1st commandment. No one was born again in the OT and all were in the flesh with the choice to serve and obey God or not. Choose this day whom you will serve !!!!

next fallacy

The unregenerate are totally in the flesh and so Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The unregenerate are totally carnal minded and so

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[Kampioen]

The unregenerate are totally in the flesh and so Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The unregenerate are totally carnal minded and so

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

But you have God unilaterally create them that way lest any man should boast that they determined themselves.

 

[brightfame52]

But you have God unilaterally create them that way lest any man should boast that they determined themselves.

We have to deal with the facts. The flesh cannot please God and the carnal mind is at enmity against God