No one said it did. Second time.
"word order does not establish temporal sequence"
Faith comes? Comes from where? The gospel has delivery service?
The Calvinists misunderstanding of the New Birth as taught by Jesus to Nicodemus
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
"word order does not establish temporal sequence"
Faith comes? Comes from where? The gospel has delivery service?
Sorry word order is not the issue here but grammar and word meaning.
So i repeat you have not addressed this
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
As for Lydia
Whose heart the Lord opened] As she was a sincere worshipper of God, she was prepared to receive the heavenly truths spoken by Paul and his companions; and, as she was faithful to the grace she had received, so God gave her more grace, and gave her now a Divine conviction that what was spoken by Paul was true; and therefore she attended unto the things—she believed them and received them as the doctrines of God; and in this faith she was joined by her whole family, and in it they were all baptized.
Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 5, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 815.
For the second time that is the Calvinist position
Again you ignore the point
Grammar and word meaning not order is the issue
That - Greek iva a conjunction denoting purpose
You are dodging once again
hearing the word of God as per the verse you ignored showing enablement not permission is in view
Now word order does not matter? LOL How convenient
Ahh...so she had to be enabled? LOL You don't say. Why did she have to be enabled? The gospel was not good enough?
Who said it was the Calvinist position?
Again, you ignore the point, "word order does not establish temporal sequence". Your words
So what was the purpose of opening her heart? Shouldn't be necessary if LFW is true.
Get real
Everyone knows that Calvinist hold one must be regenerated before they can believe
and you still dodge the point
This is not about word order
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
but word meaning and grammar
That - Greek iva a conjunction denoting purpose
You simply ignored this
My Bible Word Study
LEMMA
ἵνα hina in order that; so that; that
LXGNTLEX in order that; so that; that
LXLXXLEX in order that; so that
BAGD
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Perhaps you missed it. Here, let me copy and paste it for you.
He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:11-13, ESV)
One must first receive and believe in His Name, then, and only then does the Lord give them the right to become a child of God.
The Greek word become is γίνομαι (ginomai).
Thayer defines it as "to come into existence, begin to be, receive being, to become, be made"
Word Study defines it as: "meaning to begin to be, that is, to come into existence or into any state"
Mounce defines it as: "to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, to be born"
The Apostle's statement is very clear. One must receive and believe in His name for the Lord to give them the right to become-come into existence, to be created, to be born-children of God.
Chronologically, to become-come into existence, to be created, to be born-children of God, one must receive and believe in His name first, and then verse 13 defines it is God who births the receiving and believing as His child.
I will also remind you belief and repentance are granted or given by God. They recieved Him.
Let's see if I'm understanding your logic. All we're reconciled on the cross but some are not? Who is the all if not all are actually reconciled??
Same question. All are justified but some are not?
As for the rest of your complaints, I have already replied with biblical text in context that clearly answer them. I suggest that you reread my reply and reengage with scriptures that you think disproves the texts....Unless of course you'd like for me to copy and paste them again for you. Your call.
I will copy and paste this from my previous post: "The truths above are why it is necessary to receive and believe in the name of the Lord, for it is by the abundance of God's grace that He justified all men, everyone in the death of His Son, and this free gift of righteousness is only received by faith."
God Bless
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civic
Well-known member
you know they have their own definitions and made up meanings for words.
In this case, all he has is denial
Let me help you. Verse 13 is specific, your will, your choice have zero to do with it. Read it slower.
Also, belief is something given by God. It does not say they recieved Him by believing. That's called question begging. That would mean believing precedes receiving. It does not say that. So you recieve Christ when you are granted or given belief. All of which has nothing to do with your will. See verse 13.
As civic would say, "that's irrefutable my friend."
brightfame52
Well-known member
New Birth is secured to all the elect by virtue of the Death of Christ !
All the elect for whom Christ died shall be in Gods set time, as it is a time in the purpose of God not only to be born physically but for the elect spiritually as well Ecc 3:1-2
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
All for whom Christ died are the ones called according to the purpose of God Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified
Now the purpose of them to be conformed to the image of Gods Son makes their new birth an absolute must, and a certainty to occur,
Hence Jesus speaking of the fruit of His death says John 3:7
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
And if He dies Jn 12:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
The fruit is the new birth !
All the elect for whom Christ died shall be in Gods set time, as it is a time in the purpose of God not only to be born physically but for the elect spiritually as well Ecc 3:1-2
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
All for whom Christ died are the ones called according to the purpose of God Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified
Now the purpose of them to be conformed to the image of Gods Son makes their new birth an absolute must, and a certainty to occur,
Hence Jesus speaking of the fruit of His death says John 3:7
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
And if He dies Jn 12:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
The fruit is the new birth !
The fruit from the death of Christ is atonement, not the new birth. The new birth is not atonement. Atonement is the payment for sins committed. That is justification, the declared righteousness, for the repentant believer. The new birth is regeneration, not justification.
civic
Well-known member
nope the fruit follows the new birth which comes by and through faith in the GOSPEL
next fallacy
Notice what comes first in scripture - the order of how one becomes saved.
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ,regeneration, new life, born again etc....
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John below the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life, regeneration, born again
conclusion continued: the new birth comes after the hearing and believing in the gospel.
1- you have been born again
2- through the living and enduring word of God
3- this was the word that was preached to you.
so we see the new birth is a result of hearing and believing the preaching of the word of God. the gospel message.
James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we would be a kind of firstfruits of His creation.
1 Peter 1:25
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
1 Peter 1:21-24
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,
“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25 but the word of the Lord endures forever.”
And this is the word that was preached to you.
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Well-known member
Yes it is the new birth, the drawing is the fruit of the atoning death, and the drawing is the New Birth Jn 12:24,32
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Drawing is the fruit !
brightfame52
Well-known member
The New Birth follows the Death of Christ, its the fruit of His Death and resurrection 1 Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us
again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Begotten again is the New Birth by the resurrection of Christ following His death
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead CSB
civic
Well-known member
Nope Peter says the new birth follows the hearing and believing of the gospel
Next fallacy
brightfame52
Well-known member
The New Birth follows the Death of Christ and His Resurrection 1 Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
