The Calvinists misunderstanding of the New Birth as taught by Jesus to Nicodemus

If I give you 20 million dollars, is it a gift? You certainly didn't work for it

Yes.

If one is too stupid to believe, then he can't. And the only ones talking about a privileged class are Calvinists and their misbegotten definition of election. If that isn't a privileged class, I wouldn't know what is.
Yup. Still never referred to it as a gift. If you gave me a million dollars is it necessary to call it a gift?

Yes? LOL Who says?

So believing is a matter of intelligence? What is the lowest IQ allowed to become privileged?

You brought up privilege, not the Calvinist. Perhaps you should choose your words a little more carefully.
 
Faith always precedes life in Scripture- belief always precedes salvation in Scripture.
Does it? Even for Cornelius who is claimed was regenerate believer before hearing the gospel? How about Lydia? Was She a born again believer before God moved upon her heart?
 
Does it? Even for Cornelius who is claimed was regenerate believer before hearing the gospel? How about Lydia? Was She a born again believer before God moved upon her heart?
just like Jesus taught in Johns gospel its those who already listen and learn from the Father who come to Christ. Corneilus is a perfect example of what Jesus taught in Johns gospel I just referenced that listened and learned ( believed ) and then was later born again after Peter arrived.

Thanks once again for the opportunity to make a Biblical case based upon the truth from the text and not my preconceived doctrines I read into the text.

hope this helps !!!
 
You left out verse 13. A clarification of verse 12. So the Bible does not you are born again by believing.
You state that I left out verse 13, but in fact I stated both 12 and 13. Please reread if necessary.

I originally quoted from the NKJV. The ESV makes it more clear, and I am now including verse 11 that gives more understanding to the Apostle's statement.

He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:11-13, ESV)

One must first receive and believe in His Name, then, and only then does the Lord give them the right to become a child of God.

The Greek word become is γίνομαι (ginomai).
Thayer defines it as "to come into existence, begin to be, receive being, to become, be made"
Word Study defines it as: "meaning to begin to be, that is, to come into existence or into any state"
Mounce defines it as: "to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, to be born"

The Apostle's statement is very clear. One must receive and believe in His name for the Lord to give them the right to become-come into existence, to be created, to be born-children of God.

Chronologically, to become-come into existence, to be created, to be born-children of God, one must receive and believe in His name first, and then verse 13 defines it is God who births the receiving and believing as His child.

There is no phrase "application of His atoning sacrifice". The Bible does not even hint at such a concept. Especially after you believe. Let me ask for clarification, what is the atonement and when was or is it accomplished?
Please read all of the author's statement, for he states things quite clear. The bold words below in the author's comment help to define what he meant.

"He was teaching the necessity of the application of His atoning work. Only when sin is dealt with in the life of the individual can that person experience life and move into the sphere of God’s holy Kingdom. Jesus made it clear that the soul cleansing benefits of His atoning work are given only to those who “believe” in Him."

To answer your questions.
Atonement means to make reconciliation, which our Lord did on a cross for all men. Now, it is up to each person to "receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness" (ref, Rom 5:17)", for we know "him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (ref, Heb 2:9)"
  • All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6)
  • For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. (2Co 5:14-15)
  • All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. (2Co 5:18-20)
  • But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (Rom 3:21-25)
The truths above are why it is necessary to receive and believe in the name of the Lord, for it is by the abundance of God's grace that He justified all men, everyone in the death of His Son, and this free gift of righteousness is only received by faith.

And yet belief is something granted by God. You believe because your sins were atoned for at the cross.
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Rom 10:13-17)

The quote above disproves your understanding that I "believe because your sins were atoned for at the cross.". The driving factor in my belief is hearing that my sins were atoned for on the cross by God's Son, Jesus Christ. There is a difference. You are stating because my sins were atoned, I believe. When in fact the sins of everyone were atoned by the Lord's death, and one must believe it to receive it.

This is God's message through His own Son, “For God so loved the world, that he gave (delivered up) his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (Joh 3:16-17)

If the above message is true, and your understanding is true, then why don't all men believe for God delivered up His Son for the sins of us all, not to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through Him?
You can't have it both ways.

Faith comes by hearing the message of God's salvation through His Son preached.

Not so that your sins might possibly be atoned for. It's benefits are applied, as you put it, to all it was intended for perfectly. Christ did not die to set up the atonement store. Christ died to save His people from their sins. Not potentially save them from their sins. He did not die on the cross hoping for the best.
Your misunderstanding of God's grace is causing you to deny that very grace of God towards all men.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
(Tit 2:11-14)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
(1Ti 2:3-6)

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
(Act 17:30-31)


God Bless
 
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You state that I left out verse 13, but in fact I stated both 12 and 13. Please reread if necessary.

I originally quoted from the NKJV. The ESV makes it more clear, and I am now including verse 11 that gives more understanding to the Apostle's statement.

He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:11-13, ESV)

One must first receive and believe in His Name, then, and only then does the Lord give them the right to become a children of God.

The Greek word become is γίνομαι (ginomai).
Thayer defines it as "to come into existence, begin to be, receive being, to become, be made"
Word Study defines it as: "meaning to begin to be, that is, to come into existence or into any state"
Mounce defines it as: "to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, to be born"

The Apostle's statement is very clear. One must receive and believe in His name for the Lord to give them the right to become-come into existence, to be created, to be born-children of God.

Chronologically, to become-come into existence, to be created, to be born-children of God, one must receive and believe in His name first, and then verse 13 defines it is God who births the receiving and believing as His child.


Please read all of the author's statement, for he states things quite clear. The bold words below in the author's comment help to define what he meant.

"He was teaching the necessity of the application of His atoning work. Only when sin is dealt with in the life of the individual can that person experience life and move into the sphere of God’s holy Kingdom. Jesus made it clear that the soul cleansing benefits of His atoning work are given only to those who “believe” in Him."

To answer your questions.
Atonement means to make reconciliation, which our Lord did on a cross for all men. Now, it is up to each person to "receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness" (ref, Rom 5:17)", for we know "him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (ref, Heb 2:9)"
  • All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6)
  • For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. (2Co 5:14-15)
  • All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. (2Co 5:18-20)
  • But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (Rom 3:21-25)
The truths above are why it is necessary to receive and believe in the name of the Lord, for it is by the abundance of God's grace that He justified all men, everyone in the death of His Son, and this free gift of righteousness is only received by faith.


For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Rom 10:13-17)

The quote above disproves your understanding that I "believe because your sins were atoned for at the cross.". The driving factor in my belief is hearing that my sins were atoned for on the cross by God's Son, Jesus Christ. There is a difference. You are stating because my sins were atoned, I believe. When in fact the sins of everyone were atoned by the Lord's death, and one must believe it to receive it.

This is God's message through His own Son, “For God so loved the world, that he gave (delivered up) his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (Joh 3:16-17)

If the above message is true, and your understanding is true, then why don't all men believe for God delivered up His Son for the sins of us all, not to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through Him?
You can't have it both ways.

Faith comes by hearing the message of God's salvation through His Son preached.


Your misunderstanding of God's grace is causing you to deny that very grace of God towards all men.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
(Tit 2:11-14)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
(1Ti 2:3-6)

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
(Act 17:30-31)


God Bless
And all Gods children said: AMEN !!!
 
Does it? Even for Cornelius who is claimed was regenerate believer before hearing the gospel? How about Lydia? Was She a born again believer before God moved upon her heart?
Yes it does

The bible never states Cornelius was regenerate before hearing the gospel

Faith always precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
 
Yes it does

The bible never states Cornelius was regenerate before hearing the gospel

Faith always precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
ditto not until Peter arrived at his house.
 
Yes it does

The bible never states Cornelius was regenerate before hearing the gospel

Faith always precedes life

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
No one claims it does.

I will remind you of your quote, "word order does not establish temporal sequence"

What about Lydia? Why did God have to open her heart?
 
You state that I left out verse 13, but in fact I stated both 12 and 13. Please reread if necessary.

I originally quoted from the NKJV. The ESV makes it more clear, and I am now including verse 11 that gives more understanding to the Apostle's statement.

He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:11-13, ESV)

One must first receive and believe in His Name, then, and only then does the Lord give them the right to become a child of God.

The Greek word become is γίνομαι (ginomai).
Thayer defines it as "to come into existence, begin to be, receive being, to become, be made"
Word Study defines it as: "meaning to begin to be, that is, to come into existence or into any state"
Mounce defines it as: "to come into existence; to be created, exist by creation, to be born"

The Apostle's statement is very clear. One must receive and believe in His name for the Lord to give them the right to become-come into existence, to be created, to be born-children of God.

Chronologically, to become-come into existence, to be created, to be born-children of God, one must receive and believe in His name first, and then verse 13 defines it is God who births the receiving and believing as His child.


Please read all of the author's statement, for he states things quite clear. The bold words below in the author's comment help to define what he meant.

"He was teaching the necessity of the application of His atoning work. Only when sin is dealt with in the life of the individual can that person experience life and move into the sphere of God’s holy Kingdom. Jesus made it clear that the soul cleansing benefits of His atoning work are given only to those who “believe” in Him."

To answer your questions.
Atonement means to make reconciliation, which our Lord did on a cross for all men. Now, it is up to each person to "receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness" (ref, Rom 5:17)", for we know "him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (ref, Heb 2:9)"
  • All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6)
  • For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. (2Co 5:14-15)
  • All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. (2Co 5:18-20)
  • But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (Rom 3:21-25)
The truths above are why it is necessary to receive and believe in the name of the Lord, for it is by the abundance of God's grace that He justified all men, everyone in the death of His Son, and this free gift of righteousness is only received by faith.


For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Rom 10:13-17)

The quote above disproves your understanding that I "believe because your sins were atoned for at the cross.". The driving factor in my belief is hearing that my sins were atoned for on the cross by God's Son, Jesus Christ. There is a difference. You are stating because my sins were atoned, I believe. When in fact the sins of everyone were atoned by the Lord's death, and one must believe it to receive it.

This is God's message through His own Son, “For God so loved the world, that he gave (delivered up) his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (Joh 3:16-17)

If the above message is true, and your understanding is true, then why don't all men believe for God delivered up His Son for the sins of us all, not to condemn the world but that the world might be saved through Him?
You can't have it both ways.

Faith comes by hearing the message of God's salvation through His Son preached.


Your misunderstanding of God's grace is causing you to deny that very grace of God towards all men.

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
(Tit 2:11-14)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
(1Ti 2:3-6)

Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
(Act 17:30-31)


God Bless
All this and you still skip verse 13. Shall I quote it for you? I shall.

"who were BORN not of blood, nor THE WILL OF THE FLESH, nor the WILL OF MAN, but of God.

I will also remind you belief and repentance are granted or given by God. They recieved Him.

Let's see if I'm understanding your logic. All we're reconciled on the cross but some are not? Who is the all if not all are actually reconciled??

Same question. All are justified but some are not? 🤔
 
just like Jesus taught in Johns gospel its those who already listen and learn from the Father who come to Christ. Corneilus is a perfect example of what Jesus taught in Johns gospel I just referenced that listened and learned ( believed ) and then was later born again after Peter arrived.

Thanks once again for the opportunity to make a Biblical case based upon the truth from the text and not my preconceived doctrines I read into the text.

hope this helps !!!
It is how they are drawn, not why they are drawn.

I'm glad your getting the hang of it. About time. 😁
 
No one claims it does.

I will remind you of your quote, "word order does not establish temporal sequence"

What about Lydia? Why did God have to open her heart?
First let's note you never addressed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As for Lydia she worshipped God before her heart was opened to heed Paul

So she might understand
 
All this and you still skip verse 13. Shall I quote it for you? I shall.

"who were BORN not of blood, nor THE WILL OF THE FLESH, nor the WILL OF MAN, but of God.
Um that does not state they received him because they were born of God

Verse 12 all who receive Christ are given that right (be born again - becoming a child of God)

it is faith which obtains this right

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Verse 13 simply shows man cannot cause himself to be born again.

God must regenerate - cause to be born again - give life, but he does it for those who receive Christ

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.



I will also remind you belief and repentance are granted or given by God. They recieved Him.

Grant to enable

Men are enabled to believe based on revelation

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Um that does not state they received him because they were born of God

Verse 12 all who receive Christ are given that right (be born again - becoming a child of God)

it is faith which obtains this right

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Verse 13 simply shows man cannot cause himself to be born again.

God must regenerate - cause to be born again - give life, but he does it for those who receive Christ

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.





Grant to enable

Men are enabled to believe based on revelation

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
No one said it did. Fail

It does not say faith is what obtains that right. Fail

By and through faith, not because of

Grant, to give such as I grant permission......
 
First let's note you never addressed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

As for Lydia she worshipped God before her heart was opened to heed Paul

So she might understand
Sure I did, with a quote from you, "word order does not establish temporal sequence"

Why did she have to have her heart opened? What happened to LFW?
 
No one said it did. Fail

Duh that is the Calvinist position

Hello
It does not say faith is what obtains that right. Fail

You seem to have a problem reading

John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.




By and through faith, not because of

Grant, to give such as I grant permission......
Faith is necessary and decisive

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

This is enablement not permission

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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