The Calvinists eisegesis of John 6:55

[TibiasDad]

No one says we do make a choice.

In your system of thought, which choice comes first, God’s predetermining choice or our choice?

Are you free to act outside the sovereignty of God?

If God’s sovereignty allows it, yes! God created us in his image and after his likeness. Part of that image is sovereignty itself. God gave man the sovereignty of free will choice, just as God can freely choose to do as he pleases.

God withholds his right to interfere with man’s decisions, thus allowing man to go against God’s wishes, as man chooses of his own accord and desire.

If your once save always saved, are you free to walk away?

I am a Wesleyan in my theological perspective, and thus do not hold to OSAS or ES, so yes, I am free to walk away. Thus, the various and frequent calls in scripture to persevere in our faith in spite of our trials and tribulations encountered in our journey.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

In your system of thought, which choice comes first, God’s predetermining choice or our choice?


If God’s sovereignty allows it, yes! God created us in his image and after his likeness. Part of that image is sovereignty itself. God gave man the sovereignty of free will choice, just as God can freely choose to do as he pleases.

God withholds his right to interfere with man’s decisions, thus allowing man to go against God’s wishes, as man chooses of his own accord and desire.




I am a Wesleyan in my theological perspective, and thus do not hold to OSAS or ES, so yes, I am free to walk away. Thus, the various and frequent calls in scripture to persevere in our faith in spite of our trials and tribulations encountered in our journey.

Doug

Gods. So what.

Two things the Bible never says. 1))God have us sovereignty over our will. 2) God withholds His right to interfere with mans decisions. Do you believe in Sola Scriptura?

 

[Presby02]

The question was

So you will affirm you are born with an ability to accept the gospel?

With the natural ability yes? With the moral ability, no. Is that clear enough for you?

 

[Presby02]

Not according to RC

If John 3:16 implied a universal natural human ability of fallen men to choose Christ, then that implication would be wiped out by Jesus’ explicit teaching to the contrary. We have already shown that Jesus explicitly and unambiguously taught that no man has the ability to come to Him without God doing something to give him that ability, namely drawing him. RC Sproul

He clearly taught man does not have the natural ability

Notice the phrase "natural ability". LOL Do you read your sources?

 

[TomL]

Notice the phrase "natural ability". LOL Do you read your sources?

The real question is did you

If John 3:16 implied a universal natural human ability of fallen men to choose Christ, then that implication would be wiped out by Jesus’ explicit teaching to the contrary. We have already shown that Jesus explicitly and unambiguously taught that no man has the ability to come to Him without God doing something to give him that ability, namely drawing him. RC Sproul

He clearly taught Jesus teaching was contrary to the idea of a universal natural ability.

 

[TomL]

With the natural ability yes? With the moral ability, no. Is that clear enough for you?

A natural ability you cannot actually do LOL

 

[TibiasDad]

Gods. So what.

Okay, so does God’s choice or our choice make an action certain?

Two things the Bible never says. 1))God have us sovereignty over our will.

Gen 2:16And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

God sets the parameters; all the trees in the garden, including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are possible choices. And God said that man could eat whatever he wanted, including from the forbidden tree. No restrictions!

2) God withholds His right to interfere with mans decisions.

Did God mitigate Adam’s choice of food?

Do you believe in Sola Scriptura?

I believe scripture is the highest authority and the foundational source of all spiritual truth. All other sources are to be measured against scripture and are verified or dismissed by it.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

Okay, so does God’s choice or our choice make an action certain?



Gen 2:16And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

God sets the parameters; all the trees in the garden, including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are possible choices. And God said that man could eat whatever he wanted, including from the forbidden tree. No restrictions!


Did God mitigate Adam’s choice of food?



I believe scripture is the highest authority and the foundational source of all spiritual truth. All other sources are to be measured against scripture and are verified or dismissed by it.

Doug

I don't understand your question. Are you sayong your choices are certain? I would say yes because they are foreknown with certainty.

Never said Adam had any restrictions prior to the fall.

And all of Gods people said, AMEN!

 

[Presby02]

A natural ability you cannot actually do LOL

Sure you could if you WANTED to. LOL

 

[Presby02]

The real question is did you

If John 3:16 implied a universal natural human ability of fallen men to choose Christ, then that implication would be wiped out by Jesus’ explicit teaching to the contrary. We have already shown that Jesus explicitly and unambiguously taught that no man has the ability to come to Him without God doing something to give him that ability, namely drawing him. RC Sproul

He clearly taught Jesus teaching was contrary to the idea of a universal natural ability.

Yup, natural as opposed to the moral ability. Your very slow but catching on. I think.

 

[TomL]

Yup, natural as opposed to the moral ability. Your very slow but catching on. I think.

Read

If John 3:16 implied a universal natural human ability of fallen men to choose Christ, then that implication would be wiped out by Jesus’ explicit teaching to the contrary. We have already shown that Jesus explicitly and unambiguously taught that no man has the ability to come to Him without God doing something to give him that ability, namely drawing him. RC Sproul

RC Sproul is claiming Jesus is teaching a denial of natural ability.

The slowness here is clearly yours.

But let's ask you another question.

Does God sovereignly determine everything that happens in your particular theology?

 

[TomL]

Sure you could if you WANTED to. LOL

You cannot so desire in Calvinist/reformed theology.

Again, let me ask the other question

Does God sovereignly determine everything that happens?

 

[Presby02]

Read



RC Sproul is claiming Jesus is teaching a denial of natural ability.

The slowness here is clearly yours.

But let's ask you another question.

Does God sovereignly determine everything that happens in your particular theology?

Yup, we have the natural ability. Got it. LOL. I agree with RC.

 

[Presby02]

You cannot so desire in Calvinist/reformed theology.

Again, let me ask the other question

Does God sovereignly determine everything that happens?

Yup

 

[dwight92070]

John 6:65
And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

The Calvinist tries and bypass the reason Jesus gives in Jesus statement above that no one can come to Him unless it has been granted by the Father. They read tulip into the statement and it has nothing whatsoever to to with total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement or irresistible grace.

Here is the reason given by Jesus below in the previous verse. This answers the why question.

John 6:64- Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”

conclusion: only believers will come to Him, not unbelievers- those who are totally depraved sinners. The question is will you believe Jesus or the doctrines of man that are in error ?

hope this helps !!!

Very helpful! So we know who the Father draws - those who believe. This is exactly the same as the question: "Who does the Father elect or choose?" We know the answer to that too, it's the same answer - those who believe in Jesus.

 

[civic]

Very helpful! So we know who the Father draws - those who believe. This is exactly the same as the question: "Who does the Father elect or choose?" We know the answer to that too, it's the same answer - those who believe in Jesus.

Amen with the end goal of being conformed to the image of the Son.

 

[TomL]

Yup

So where is the free will?

Or if God is determining who can believe, where is the natural ability to believe?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So was he lying then, or is he lying now? How can we tell?

I still prefer to ask ARMINIANS to explain what an Arminian believes, WESLEYANS to explain what a Wesleyan believes, Catholics to explain what a Catholic believes and “Calvinists” to explain what a Calvinist believes [although, technically, there is no such thing as a ‘Calvinist’ since NOBODY is a disciple of John Calvin … he started no school or church … a Presbyterian is very different from a Particular Baptist].

BUT in the final analysis it's nothing but "Theology" - which is like noses. Everybody's got one.

Personally, I ascribe to NO systematics, and prefer to be Biblically eclectic. The ONE MAJOR THING that "Calvinism" gets right is that EVERYTHING STARTS WITH GOD.

 

[TibiasDad]

Yup

Then has God saved me and led me to disagree and argue against Reform theology?

Doug

 

[Presby02]

So where is the free will?

Or if God is determining who can believe, where is the natural ability to believe?

God determined you to believe and does so without using force or coercion. So you believe freely.

The issue is not natural ability, its moral ability. You can but you dont want to. Its a heart issue, hence it is replaced.