The Calvinists eisegesis of John 6:55
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
To the contrary
Sorry but it seems pretty obvious
if everyone is born hating God, unable to believe, there is no natural ability to believe.
Nor is there any possible desire according to your theology
That there is no natural ability to believe is rather clear if you are open to the truth.
BTW
Then, being born in that condition, no one has any desire to believe so; if it is done by God, it is contrary to human will in your theology.
So it sounds like force or coercion.
Clearly it is contrary to the will of man your theology vocates.
Further, while God had determined this reprobation, he then commands all to believe who he
determined cannot and then punishes eternally those who cannot overcome the condition he determined all
would be born under.
There are some serious issues with that theology.
God himself determines all men reprobate, then punishes them because they are what he determined.
That sounds just to you?
additionally
Romans 10:8–10 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.
John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
The verses above reflect a real natural ability contrary to your theology.
The word is near to your mouth and heart.
Faith is stated to come by hearing.
Scripture has passages written that you may believe.
This is all contrary to your theology.
This was proof and you ignore it
So you want us to believe God commands men to do what he had determined they could not do
Scriptures below however are telling man to choose, revere, or love God and clearly involve ability
Deuteronomy 30:19–20 (LEB) — 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
1 Kings 18:21 (LEB) — 21 Elijah approached to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping over two opinions? If Yahweh is God, go after him; but if Baal, go after him.” But the people did not answer him a word.
Proverbs 3:5–6 (LEB) — 5 Trust Yahweh with all your heart; do not lean toward your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will straighten your paths.
Joshua 24:14–15 (LEB) — 14 “So now, revere Yahweh and serve him in sincerity and faithfulness; remove the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river and in Egypt, and serve Yahweh. 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.”
That would be true natural ability.
Yup. I have no better than the law irself.
"It serms obvious" is not proof. Its called question begging. So prove its force or coercion. Were still listening.....
You have no answer
This was proof and you ignore it
So you want us to believe God commands men to do what he had determined they could not do
Scriptures below however are telling man to choose, revere, or love God and clearly involve ability
Deuteronomy 30:19–20 (LEB) — 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”
1 Kings 18:21 (LEB) — 21 Elijah approached to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping over two opinions? If Yahweh is God, go after him; but if Baal, go after him.” But the people did not answer him a word.
Proverbs 3:5–6 (LEB) — 5 Trust Yahweh with all your heart; do not lean toward your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will straighten your paths.
Joshua 24:14–15 (LEB) — 14 “So now, revere Yahweh and serve him in sincerity and faithfulness; remove the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river and in Egypt, and serve Yahweh. 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.”
That would be true natural ability.
see also
Joshua 24:15–18 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.”
Our choices matter to God, but what would be the value of our choices if God had already, secretly decreed all of our choices for us? In other words, if God decreed whatsoever comes to pass, including all of the thoughts and intentions of the heart, then while we certainly make choices, we wouldn’t really have a choice, besides what is chosen for us. Moreover, why would God respond with approval or displeasure, if our choices were really just and extension of His decreed choices? If Calvinists were to deny that God makes our choices for us, but merely that God renders our choices certain, then that would seem like a distinction without a difference.
Calvinism Answered Verse by Verse and Subject by Subject
And you ignore my example. LOL
Your choices do matter. They are part of the plan. Judas chose to betray our Lord. A very important choice. A choice planned and determined by God. Actually brought about by His hand.
Tom answered subject by subject.
Also Tom refuses to deal with moral ability and clearly does not understand what is meant by natural ability. As opposed to moral ability.
"It seems obvious" is not evidence. Its subjective. Repeating yourself will mot change that.
I seriously doubt your imagination and your denial of what is indeed obvious.
Further real natural ability is shown here
Joshua 24:15–25 (NASB95) — 15 “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 “The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 “If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
and here as well
Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (NASB95) — 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”
"It seems obvious" is not proof. Repeating yourself is also not proof other than you have no proof.
What is "real natural ability" as opposed to fake natural ability? LOL
Completely false claim.
As I posted the definition of natural ability and a Calvinist who denied man had such ability
Calvinist theology holds God has decreed all that happens.
Will you deny that?
So man doing what God decreed he do still shows man freely chose such?
This was proof of your error and you ignore it
That would be true natural ability.
You, however, deny man has that ability, but you want to claim he still has natural ability in that matter
That is totally absurd
see also
As the following source notes
Additionally, your so called example of Judas betraying the Lord
If God decrees, determines all that happens, how would Judas's action be considered free?
In any case, the main issue is the ability to believe.
Now your resorting to dishonesty. Typical Provisionist.
Quote me saying I deny man has the natural ability to believe.
Define "true natural ability". As opposed to false natural ability.
Better yet, explain naural ability as opposed to moral ability.
Really?
You now want to claim man can choose God?
Please answer the question
You now would like to claim man can choose God?
I posted scripture that gives him that ability.
One can actually do what I termed true natural ability.
If one cannot, then it is a false claim that he has natural ability.
Already have defined natural ability. Perhaps you should read what is posted.
The scriptures posted showed real proof of natural ability.
An ability you deny man has in selecting God.
I have never denied natural ability. LOL
Nor moral ability which you are ignoring.
Man has the natural ability to choose God. I have said that many times despite your dishonest claims to the contrary.
Man, however, lacks the moral ability to believe God.
That was not my question: explain the difference between natural and moral ability.
I asked you if he can actually choose God as per scripture
Joshua 24:15–18 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.”
Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring,
I am not asking you based on your defining.
Can he actually do so?
I am done answering your questions until mine addressed.
Explain the difference between natural and moral ability.
Similar threads
