The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Scriptures you're referencing are a self awareness test. Commandment keeping is nothing but compliance.

Jesus wants us to see Commandment keeping not as a matter of compliance, but as a matter of LOVE.

Jesus said “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

One of the things that Jesus stressed the most is that we shouldn't make of commandment keeping a matter of compliance, like the Pharisees did. This time I'm a bit surprised of your perspective.

Going back to the argument, you may persuade me that being right about the Trinity is important if you show that

• being right in such belief translates into keeping Jesus commandments, while
• being wrong in such belief translates into living the life of the flesh that Jesus warned us against.

If you can't find any association between adhering to that doctrine and following Christ commandment, any debate on the Trinity should be as much entertainment as playing chess....

 

[Alive2]

I think this conversation, in a sense misses the bullseye by a couple rings. Unitarianism denies the Trinity as orthodoxy recognizes scripture. That position makes for much error and is dangerous. I will leave off the why for now.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You judge evil by works you're equally guilty of yourself. You're even presenting scenarios where Christ is LESS than the righteousness of the Father.

I don't recall to have presented such scenarios. What specifically are you talking about? Thanks in advance for your response.

I don't promote one group that is wrong over another group that is wrong.

I'm not asking you to do it.
I'm telling you that, if belief in the Trinity were so important as you think,

1. God had made explicit and redudant that holding that belief is a condition to be forgiven, sanctified, or to enter the Kingdom.
2. The crime rates of Unitarians and Trinitarians would differ significantly.

Do you have a counterargument to those two propositions?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I think this conversation, in a sense misses the bullseye by a couple rings. Unitarianism denies the Trinity as orthodoxy recognizes scripture. That position makes for much error and is dangerous. I will leave off the why for now.

That's the focus of my recent posts.
Is it dangerous? How can be sure it is dangerous? What evidence can we offer that is damaging individuals and societies?


In the past I have presented my arguments for why I believe in the Oneness of God, as the Single Person, Single Mind, who is the God of Jesus.

Now I have decided not to argue about the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity, but about its relevance to our daily life. Particularly in the face of an exchange of accusations between Forum members, who seem to think that the person who does not share their belief deserves to burn in hell forever.

 

[civic]

That's the focus of my recent posts.
Is it dangerous? How can be sure it is dangerous? What evidence can we offer that is damaging individuals and societies?


In the past I have presented my arguments for why I believe in the Oneness of God, as the Single Person, Single Mind, who is the God of Jesus.

Now I have decided not to argue about the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity, but about its relevance to our daily life. Particularly in the face of an exchange of accusations between Forum members, who seem to think that the person who does not share their belief deserves to burn in hell forever.

I think many will be surprised who will be in heaven and who will not. One thing for sure is Jesus knows our hearts.

Not to long ago I use to be heavy handed on the who is going to hell thing. Not much these days I leave that Judgment to Christ. All I can do is present the gospel and let God do the rest. I do love discipleship and having real life open discussions with men in our Thursday and Saturday morning mens groups and also in our life groups.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Pray to Jesus. In praying to Jesus, I recognize the true value of Jesus Christ.

That is a good thing.
However, not all Trinitarians pray to Jesus. Isn't that so?
Most pray only to the Father. Some pray to both.

So, praying to Jesus is not an action that tells who believes in Jesus' deity and who does not.
Praying to Jesus is not something you could put as a condition or evidence that somebody worships Jesus.
Certainly, not a biblical requirement.
People could be praying with all their hearts "Our Father in heaven" just as Jesus taught, without major consequences on their belief on the deity of Jesus.

Last week I prayed to Jesus, I thanked him for his courageous love, and I believe that the Only True God is His Father.
Catholics pray to Virgin Mary, and they don't believe Mary is God.

Therefore, there should be an ACTION other than praying to Jesus that would tell who worships Jesus and who does not.
Does anyone have an idea of what action that could be?

 

[Alive2]

Now I have decided not to argue about the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity, but about its relevance to our daily life. Particularly in the face of an exchange of accusations between Forum members, who seem to think that the person who does not share their belief deserves to burn in hell forever.

That last part is abhorrent to me.
May I suggest, daily life here and now as a focus is looking a what is far less important than being aligned with Truth.
I do understand your point, but if I may and without rancor…I am convinced that anti-Trinity positions is a doctrine of devils.
This is dangerous. It does not mean that any person in that camp, for any number of reasons is not one of the elect.
Many of my brethren have been influenced wrongly.
God knows.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I think many will be surprised who will be in heaven and who will not. One thing for sure is Jesus knows our hearts.

Not to long ago I use to be heavy handed on the who is going to hell thing. Not much these days I leave that Judgment to Christ. All I can do is present the gospel and let God do the rest. I do love discipleship and having real life open discussions with men in our Thursday and Saturday morning mens groups and also in our life groups.

May God bless you always, Civic ! You made my day. Now I can shut the computer and go. I'll take my dog to the vet for a regular review.

What makes me happier than anything else is that you didn't only think to leave that Judgement to Christ, but you started changing the way you speak about these things. This for sure will also translate into the way you interact with all your human fellows from other religions.
Not that you treated them badly (you have been kind to me), but that you will treat them even better.

Being judgmental is an obstacle that separates us form each other... and from God !

Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you will not be condemned.... For with the measure you use, it will be measured unto you.”

 

[Runningman]

No. They are subservient to one another. That is what Unity is. Being Subservient to one another.

I guess you've never considered yourself a servant to anyone right? Is that why you can't understand the Subservient nature of the Holy Trinity....

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Notice the "heaven" part.....

Equals. Co-equals

I bet you think you're better than your son? Right? You're the "master" right and even your son must obey you.....

Geesh. What a demoniac teaching straight out of hell.

The Father is above all. If I understand you correctly, your answer to Paul is a flat no. That's helpful to understand how you approach the Bible and the teachings therein. According to Scripture, God and Jesus are not equals. Jesus taught on his inferiority to God and directly said it. Paul also went around the Roman Empire preaching that Jesus is not equal to God in many places. Ephesians 4:6 is one; there are others, such as Philippians 2:6, and more.

John 17 (KJV)
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 13 (KJV)
16Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14 (KJV)
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Philippians 2 (NASB)
6who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

 

[mikesw]

That's the focus of my recent posts.
Is it dangerous? How can be sure it is dangerous? What evidence can we offer that is damaging individuals and societies?


In the past I have presented my arguments for why I believe in the Oneness of God, as the Single Person, Single Mind, who is the God of Jesus.

Now I have decided not to argue about the validity of the doctrine of the Trinity, but about its relevance to our daily life. Particularly in the face of an exchange of accusations between Forum members, who seem to think that the person who does not share their belief deserves to burn in hell forever.

the relevance to daily life has not changed. It is during one's lifetime that he can find Christ and be reconciled. If people are getting an insufficient message of the gospel, it may be ineffective in reaching people to come to Christ. Indeed it seems many church groups have fallen into atheist leadership and other foul paths. The denial of Christ appears as a sign of such trouble. So even church gatherings could be a waste of time and energy.

 

[Alive2]

These scriptures are dealing with The Word, being made flesh for a time, so that He could be a corporate representative for Redemption.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You're actually making my argument for me relative to Simon. Simon was guilty regardless of intent.

If Peter had believed your thesis, he wouldn’t have open the possibility of God forgiving Simon based on Simon’s intention.
So Peter knew the same truth that your grandma knew, that your mon knew, that you as a child once knew, but that you are forgetting : that Intention matters.

If Paul had believed your thesis, he wouldn’t have said of himself: “I was previously a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and an insolent man. But I was shown mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.” (1 Tim 1:13). So, intention matters.

If Jesus had believed your thesis, he wouldn’t have askes His Father to forgive the Roman soldiers even when they had not confessed any sin nor repented. Jesus’ petition was based on the ignorance of the Roman Soldiers. Under ignorance there can be no intention to harm. So, intention matters.

If you, my brother, believed your own thesis, you would react to intentional and unintentional offences committed by your son or daughter in the same way. So, Intention matters.

Please bear this in mind before you make a judgement on somebody.

 

[jeremiah1five]

What matters is being right on the right beliefs. The relevant ones. They are very very few.
We can afford to be wrong in thousands of other beliefs. We do it daily.

Being right on the belief: "God wants me to repent from the bad I did to my brother" or "People will not burn in hell because of being or not being Jewish" (like our friend @jeremiah1five sustains) are infinitely more important than whether Jesus is God or not.
Let me show you the evidence really quick:

• If you believe Jesus is God, you have to repent and keep Jesus commandment.
• If you believe Jesus is not God, you still have to repent and keep Jesus commandment.

If the Trinity were so important as you think...

• God had made it very clear, in explicit and redundant terms, that it is a requirement to be forgiven, or born again, or sanctified.
• The crime rate would be quite different between formal followers of Trinitarians and Unitarians churches, showing that "being right" on this topic translates into "acting right". To my knowledge, there is no study showing that crime rates are higher in Jehovah Witnesses than in Southern Baptists.

Boy, do you get it wrong.
Why do you place burdens upon non-Hebrew Gentiles which God never gave them to bear?
The Word of God was written to and for the Hebrew people in covenant with God.
Instead, you take the Hebrew Scripture and tell non-Hebrew Gentiles you must do this or do that before you can be "born-again."
Don't you know that there is no requirement of faith in any of the three Hebrew covenants.
There is no requirement of faith in the Abraham Covenant.
There is no requirement of faith in the Mosaic Covenant (but there is a requirement of obedience.)
And there is no requirement of faith in the New Covenant.
So, why are you adding to the bible?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus wants us to see Commandment keeping not as a matter of compliance, but as a matter of LOVE.

Jesus said “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15)

One of the things that Jesus stressed the most is that we shouldn't make of commandment keeping a matter of compliance, like the Pharisees did. This time I'm a bit surprised of your perspective.

Going back to the argument, you may persuade me that being right about the Trinity is important if you show that

• being right in such belief translates into keeping Jesus commandments, while

• 
  
  You have a "nak" for condemning yourself in these conversations.
  
  Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
  
  Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
  
  Do you see that "MY COMMANDMENTS" statement.....
  
  First requirement meet. Pay attention to what I just said. You'll get it.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't recall to have presented such scenarios. What specifically are you talking about? Thanks in advance for your response.

I know you don't. That is part of the issue between us. I have already tried to convince you otherwise.

I'm not asking you to do it.
I'm telling you that, if belief in the Trinity were so important as you think,

1. God had made explicit and redudant that holding that belief is a condition to be forgiven, sanctified, or to enter the Kingdom.
2. The crime rates of Unitarians and Trinitarians would differ significantly.

Do you have a counterargument to those two propositions?

Human beings are human beings. Christians sin. Unitarians sin. That is why be are to be kind and tenderhearted to one another when we sin. Flesh is flesh. I'm not going to get into a "who is better" argument among men. I rely upon the Grace of God in that argument. You're no different. You do too.

The exception to "kindness and tenderheartedness" is regarding the need to know the Truth. Everything begins with properly recognizing the Truth. Anything that begins otherwise requires Grace and Mercy from God.

You have misunderstood me from the beginning. I have a single threshold for acceptance by God. That threshold is Jesus Christ. You're competing for God's affection. I'm relying upon the work of another. Jesus Christ.

 

[synergy]

The context isn't Trinitarianism, the context is the Jesus praying to his God and telling him he's the only true God. Since that's true for Jesus then it's true for everyone.

Thank you for confirming that Trinitarianism is not the subject here which confirms that Trinitarianism is not on trial here. The onus was on you to prove that it's not idolatry and paganism that is being contrasted with the one true God and you failed miserably to do so.

Hello synergy. Are you imagining me running away when I am still here? Stick to the issues instead of making noise.

The Bible does not contradict Isaiah 42:8. Yes there is God's exclusive glory and then there is glory that God gives to people that isn't His glory. Therefore, John 17:5 isn't a reference to God's exclusive glory that He will not give to another because He gave it to Jesus and the disicples.

John 17 (KJV)
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Romans 8 (KJV)
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Wait a minute. Why would Jesus be asking for glory which he had with the Father (John 17:5) if he already already has glory from the Father which he gave to the Disciples (John 17:22)? So one glory (John 17:5) is different than the other glory (John 17:22), n'est pas? You unitarians are so quick to assume your position that you leave your critical thinking in a ditch.

Thus, Jesus is to receive back "God's exclusive glory" that God gives to no other. That proves Jesus is God!

You're imagining that. I love John 17:5 and it demonstrates perfectly that Jesus didn't literally pre-exist. Don't forget John 17:3 is still there

You failed miserably with John 17:3 because you yourself admitted that Trinitarianism is not the subject there.

God the Father is the only savior of men who is the primary savior.

You just flat out contradicted the Bible when it declares that "there is salvation in no other one" than "Jesus Christ of Nazareth".

Act 4:10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this name does this man stand before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Who saved Jesus? I predict you will not answer this question.

Hebrews 5 (KJV)
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Fantastic verse for Trinitarianism! Only God saves so since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God then that verse perfectly aligns with Trinitarianism.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

 

[synergy]

You just said no to Scripture. I didn't offer you an opinion. I gave you a Scriptural fact as defined by James.

The verse says "when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed". Are you seriously saying that Jesus falls into that category????

Orthodox heresy. So God can be tempted with sin? Now you are contradicting yourself.

Its perfectly orthodox to recognize that the Son is the perfect Image of the Father.

(Heb 1:3) who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high,

Believing God can be tempted to sin is non-heretic? Your comment doesn't make any sense. You began by first denying Scripture and then saying that it's orthodox to do so and that you aren't a heretic. Sorry, are you reading what you type here?

John 17:3 proves the Father is the only true God. Deal with it.

Already dealt with. See link below:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-bible-does-not-teach-to-pray-to-jesus.2040/post-119689

 

[Runningman]

Thank you for confirming that Trinitarianism is not the subject here which confirms that Trinitarianism is not on trial here. The onus was on you to prove that it's not idolatry and paganism that is being contrasted with the one true God and you failed miserably to do so.

Then don't mention Trinitarianism in context of Scripture again. Jesus never talked about, discussed, or hinted at any such thing.

Wait a minute. Why would Jesus be asking for glory which he had with the Father (John 17:5) if he already already has glory from the Father which he gave to the Disciples (John 17:22)? So one glory (John 17:5) is different than the other glory (John 17:22), n'est pas? You unitarians are so quick to assume your position that you leave your critical thinking in a ditch.

Now you're asking good questions. How did the hour only come to glorify him "now" with the glory Jesus "had?" Jesus pre-existing and losing his glory isn't a Biblical doctrine. Jesus is referring to the glory he had in God's foreknowledge.

Thus, Jesus is to receive back "God's exclusive glory" that God gives to no other. That proves Jesus is God!

You were so close to catching on. So the disciples are God when they got God's glory? Think about this carefully before you answer it.

John 17
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

You failed miserably with John 17:3 because you yourself admitted that Trinitarianism is not the subject there.

John 17:3 proves the only true God is the Father.

You just flat out contradicted the Bible when it declares that "there is salvation in no other one" than "Jesus Christ of Nazareth".

Calling on the name of YHWH for salvation doesn't contradict Scripture. Seems you don't know the gospel. You shouldn't play with fire with your salvation just because you like to debate.

Act 4:10 be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, in this name does this man stand before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Fantastic verse for Trinitarianism! Only God saves so since the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God then that verse perfectly aligns with Trinitarianism.

Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

Romans 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The LXX of Joel 2:32 uses kurios for the Hebrew YHWH. That isn't Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

The verse says "when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed". Are you seriously saying that Jesus falls into that category????

Yes because he isn't God. You're a skeptic.

Hebrews 4
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Its perfectly orthodox to recognize that the Son is the perfect Image of the Father.

(Heb 1:3) who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His essence, and upholding all things by the word of His power, through Himself cleansing of our sins, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high,

Then we can be in the perfect image of the Father according to "orthodoxy."

Romans 8
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Already dealt with. See link below:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-bible-does-not-teach-to-pray-to-jesus.2040/post-119689

Why are you running away? Post what you said here.

 

[synergy]

Then don't mention Trinitarianism in context of Scripture again. Jesus never talked about, discussed, or hinted at any such thing.

You continue to have difficulty reading what I wrote. See what I wrote below. I said "here", not "everywhere" in the Bible.

Thank you for confirming that Trinitarianism is not the subject here which confirms that Trinitarianism is not on trial here.

Thus, you have failed miserably to once again prove that it's not idolatry and paganism that is being contrasted with the one true God.

Now you're asking good questions. How did the hour only come to glorify him "now" with the glory Jesus "had?" Jesus pre-existing and losing his glory isn't a Biblical doctrine. Jesus is referring to the glory he had in God's foreknowledge.

Nobody "lost his glory", least of all Jesus. Sheesh. Once again you are resorting to outrageous strawmen, I see.

You were so close to catching on. So the disciples are God when they got God's glory? Think about this carefully before you answer it.

John 17
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 17:3 proves the only true God is the Father.

It's the glory that we receive when we're saved. Not the glory that is exclusive to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So no, we do not become God. If you have a different opinion then let's have it

Calling on the name of YHWH for salvation doesn't contradict Scripture. Seems you don't know the gospel. You shouldn't play with fire with your salvation just because you like to debate.

Jesus has been recorded with many names in the Bible. Are you saying some names gives you more entitlements than his other names?

Romans 10
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The LXX of Joel 2:32 uses kurios for the Hebrew YHWH. That isn't Jesus.

Jesus is called multiple times kurios (Lord) in the NT. That most certainly is Jesus' name. Thank you for continuing to stream Trinitarian verses.