The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Pancho Frijoles]

You're not. You have an agenda. That agenda is to discredit Jesus Christ.

A person discredits Jesus Christ when, confessing Christ with his lips, does the opposite of what Jesus Christ taught, and does it publicly.
If have not treated you fairly, please forgive me.

 

[praise_yeshua]

A person discredits Jesus Christ when, confessing Christ with his lips, does the opposite of what Jesus Christ taught, and does it publicly.
If have not treated you fairly, please forgive me.

There is nothing to forgive. We are arguing. Arguing is necessary. I care about what I believe. You care about what you believe. We are passionate about it. We just can't both be right. What matters is being right. We have to get it right or we are being deceived.

You're talking "around" the issues we're arguing about instead of dealing with them "head on". I'm not "posturing" in this argument we are having.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not true. Many people repeat lies they do not understand. It is nonetheless a lie.

Then you must change your definition of lies, because it is mistaken, my brother.
Thanks to your definition, you are about to declare a liar every person who is mistaken about some theological view.

You believe that God is triune. I think that's a mistake. I don't think that's a lie.
I think you are mistaken. I don't think you are a liar.
You don't want to deceive anyone into opposing God.
By worshiping Jesus (whatever that may mean for you) you want to give glory to the Father... and that desire comes from God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then you must change your definition of lies, because it is mistaken, my brother.
Thanks to your definition, you are about to declare a liar every person who is mistaken about some theological view.

You're reference a legal definition that includes a "intent to deceive". However those are legal requirements written by men. Telling a lie whether intentional or not equals deception.

You believe that God is triune. I think that's a mistake. I don't think that's a lie.

Calling it an lie doesn't bother me at all.

I think you are mistaken. I don't think you are a liar.

Intent does not excuse sin.

You don't want to deceive anyone into opposing God.

There is no requirement relative to intent found in the Biblical languages of the Scriptures.

By worshiping Jesus (whatever that may mean for you) you want to give glory to the Father... and that desire comes from God.

Not worshipping Jesus Christ indicates your lack of love and value found in Jesus Christ.

 

[Selah]

Jesus came as Emmanuel, which means God with us. It is written that JESUS, the Savior of the world, is fully Divine and also fully human, being born of a woman. What a Wonderful TRUTH this is—God was in Christ!

In my opinion, there’s no need to question the LORD God too much about these deep things to the point where we question the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. After all, God is God and we certainly are not.

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

- Matthew 1:23 (KJV)
Selah

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There is no requirement relative to intent found in the Biblical languages of the Scriptures.

The fact that God gave us commandments imply that we can choose to follow them or not.
For example, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
There is no commandment like "You shall not err when calculating the square root of a number"

If a divine commandment presupposes choice, then sin (the violation of God's Law) presupposes intent.
That's the whole point of God knowing our hearts, a concept well embedded in the Bible.

Let's remember the case of Simon, the sorcerer. He had converted and baptized, but he still had this superstitious mindset. In his view, miracles were done if the proper words were uttered, or the proper rites were performed. Working miracles was a "technique" that could be taught and learned. So he offered the apostles money in exchange for teaching him how to lay hands and make people heal or speak in languages.
Peter reacts this way:
“May your money perish with you, because you thought you could purchase the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor share in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Therefore repent of your wickedness, and ask God if perhaps the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.”

So, Peter recognizes that, although his first impression is that Simon has committed a big sin, God will consider the intention of his heart. Peter offers hope to Simon. Then Luke bothers to present Simon's frightful reply: “Pray to the Lord for me that nothing you have spoken may come upon me.” Simon reveals once more his magical way of thinking: God's wrath may be appeased if the right people (the apostles) intercede.

What do I experience when reading the case of Simon The Sorcerer? Compassion. If I, being so arrogant and stupid, feel compassion for that man, how much compassion could God, who knew his heart, offer?

There are other examples of the relevance of intent in the Bible. We can go through them perhaps at another thread if anyone is interested.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Not worshipping Jesus Christ indicates your lack of love and value found in Jesus Christ.

Now that you mention it, with which actions do you show you worship Christ?

Please share any action that you take, from the moment you wake up in the morning, to the moment you fall sleep at night... or from the moment you met Christ the first time, to today.
What have you done, or what are you doing, that shows that you worship Christ?

 

[praise_yeshua]

The fact that God gave us commandments imply that we can choose to follow them or not.
For example, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
There is no commandment like "You shall not err when calculating the square root of a number"

If a divine commandment presupposes choice, then sin (the violation of God's Law) presupposes intent.
That's the whole point of God knowing our hearts, a concept well embedded in the Bible.

Let's remember the case of Simon, the sorcerer. He had converted and baptized, but he still had this superstitious mindset. In his view, miracles were done if the proper words were uttered, or the proper rites were performed. Working miracles was a "technique" that could be taught and learned. So he offered the apostles money in exchange for teaching him how to lay hands and make people heal or speak in languages.
Peter reacts this way:
“May your money perish with you, because you thought you could purchase the gift of God with money! You have neither part nor share in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. Therefore repent of your wickedness, and ask God if perhaps the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.”

So, Peter recognizes that, although his first impression is that Simon has committed a big sin, God will consider the intention of his heart. Peter offers hope to Simon. Then Luke bothers to present Simon's frightful reply: “Pray to the Lord for me that nothing you have spoken may come upon me.” Simon reveals once more his magical way of thinking: God's wrath may be appeased if the right people (the apostles) intercede.

What do I experience when reading the case of Simon The Sorcerer? Compassion. If I, being so arrogant and stupid, feel compassion for that man, how much compassion could God, who knew his heart, offer?

There are other examples of the relevance of intent in the Bible. We can go through them perhaps at another thread if anyone is interested.

You're actually making my argument for me relative to Simon. Simon was guilty regardless of intent.

Innocence is not a defense against the charges of sin. Many innocent people die because of the actions of others and not their own actions. Abel is your first issue to overcome.

All of humanity are subjected TOGETHER in Hope.... Even animals, planets and etc suffer the results of the actions of another. "kinsmen". We are all together in this.

 

[civic]

You're not paying attention at all. I posted the Scripture that says otherwise.

Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

You need to reconcile this in your comments.

Jesus was highly exalted and given a name which is above every name. You don't like this at all. I can tell.

pretty clear its answering prayer in that passage since He was telling them He is going away and will not be with them anymore in person.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Now that you mention it, with which actions do you show you worship Christ?

Please share any action that you take, from the moment you wake up in the morning, to the moment you fall sleep at night... or from the moment you met Christ the first time, to today.
What have you done, or what are you doing, that shows that you worship Christ?

God has the record. I will not boast of my actions. I'll wait for God to speak of me.....

You can take my words for an example. I have done nothing here in response to you to dishonor the lofty privilege of Jesus Christ.

At the very least, you should stop this attack on the privileged equal position of Jesus Christ with the Father. There is no separation between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[civic]

Then you must change your definition of lies, because it is mistaken, my brother.
Thanks to your definition, you are about to declare a liar every person who is mistaken about some theological view.

You believe that God is triune. I think that's a mistake. I don't think that's a lie.
I think you are mistaken. I don't think you are a liar.
You don't want to deceive anyone into opposing God.
By worshiping Jesus (whatever that may mean for you) you want to give glory to the Father... and that desire comes from God.

We all believe lies whether or not we realize it, since none of us have all the truth. So by definition if it's not true it must be the opposite and a lie or deception. Everyone is guilty of this with their beliefs whether its a fraction of a percent, 1 percent, 5, 10, 15, 20 etc......

 

[praise_yeshua]

pretty clear its answering prayer in that passage since He was telling them He is going away and will not be with them anymore in person.

Correct. When HE returns.... That will make ALL the difference. Great, Grand, Glorious day. I long for that day.

Do you think Unitarians treasure such things in Jesus Christ?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What matters is being right. We have to get it right or we are being deceived.

What matters is being right on the right beliefs. The relevant ones. They are very very few.
We can afford to be wrong in thousands of other beliefs. We do it daily.

Being right on the belief: "God wants me to repent from the bad I did to my brother" or "People will not burn in hell because of being or not being Jewish" (like our friend @jeremiah1five sustains) are infinitely more important than whether Jesus is God or not.
Let me show you the evidence really quick:

• If you believe Jesus is God, you have to repent and keep Jesus commandment.
• If you believe Jesus is not God, you still have to repent and keep Jesus commandment.

If the Trinity were so important as you think...

• God had made it very clear, in explicit and redundant terms, that it is a requirement to be forgiven, or born again, or sanctified.
• The crime rate would be quite different between formal followers of Trinitarians and Unitarians churches, showing that "being right" on this topic translates into "acting right". To my knowledge, there is no study showing that crime rates are higher in Jehovah Witnesses than in Southern Baptists.

 

[civic]

Correct. When HE returns.... That will make ALL the difference. Great, Grand, Glorious day. I long for that day.

Do you think Unitarians treasure such things in Jesus Christ?

I encountered some on the old forum but they are far and few between.

 

[Alive2]

I look at this in the following manner: I have learned that substituting ‘name’ for ‘nature’ in many contexts.
So, I am cognizant of praying to the Father in the nature of Christ, as the Father, by placing me into Christ, provided me with His Life. The name is the nature and that nature is Life. His Life.
The above is very much obvious in scripture.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What matters is being right on the right beliefs. The relevant ones. They are very very few.
We can afford to be wrong in thousands of other beliefs. We do it daily.

Being right on the belief: "God wants me to repent from the bad I did to my brother" or "People will not burn in hell because of being or not being Jewish" (like our friend @jeremiah1five sustains) are infinitely more important than whether Jesus is God or not.
Let me show you the evidence really quick:

• If you believe Jesus is God, you have to keep Jesus comandment and love your brother... and you have to repent if you sin.
• If you believe Jesus is not God, you still have to keep Jesus comnandment and love your brother... and you still have to repent if you sin.

The Scriptures you're referencing are a self awareness test. Commandment keeping is nothing but compliance. You do that with the evil governments controlling this world. Does that mean you're a follower of the government?

No. Commandments are self awareness tests. You should see yourself guilty and Christ not guilty. Yet, you would have me believe that Christ is not worthy of a perfect relationship with the Father.

If the Trinity were so important as you think...

• God had made it very clear, in explicit and redundant terms, that it is a requirement to be forgiven, or born again, or sanctified.
• The crime rate would be quite different between formal followers of Trinitarians and Unitarians churches, showing that "being right" on this topic translates into "acting right". To my knowledge, there is no study showing that crime rates are higher in Jehovah Witnesses than in Southern Baptists.

You judge evil by works you're equally guilty of yourself. You're even presenting scenarios where Christ is LESS than the righteousness of the Father.

I don't promote one group that is wrong over another group that is wrong.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God has the record. I will not boast of my actions. I'll wait for God to speak of me.....

I did not explain the rationale of my question and where I am coming from. I'm sorry for this.

My thesis is that there is no action whatsoever that you may have done as a worshiper of Jesus, that a Unitarian could NOT have done.
Therefore, that there is no way to tell who believes in Jesus deity and who does not, other than listening or reading theological statements.

Probably I'm wrong and you can show me any action that a Unitarian would not have done, other than verbal or written statements.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I encountered some on the old forum but they are far and few between.

I generally criticize "Jesus Only" positions but I recognize the value they place in Jesus Christ. I don't believe a person can overvalue Jesus Christ.

That is what the majority of unitarians do.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I did not explain the rationale of my question and where I am coming from. I'm sorry for this.

My thesis is that there is no action whatsoever that you may have done as a worshiper of Jesus, that a Unitarian could NOT have done.
Therefore, that there is no way to tell who believes in Jesus deity and who does not, other than listening or reading theological statements.

Probably I'm wrong and you can show me any action that a Unitarian would not have done, other than verbal or written statements.

Pray to Jesus. In praying to Jesus, I recognize the true value of Jesus Christ.

I'm not going to pray to you. Praying to you would devalue Jesus Christ. I'm not going to pray to Mary. Praying to Mary, devalues Jesus Christ.

I treasure how the Holy Spirit "honors" the Son in my relationship to God.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

If you're going to honor God, you can't preach the Son like you're preaching and please God.

 

[civic]

I generally criticize "Jesus Only" positions but I recognize the value they place in Jesus Christ. I don't believe a person can overvalue Jesus Christ.

That is what the majority of unitarians do.

yes undervalue.

I'm reminded of one of the definitions of miseo/hate which is to esteem less, love less. Most seem to love Jesus less/esteem Him less than whom they identify as God.