The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[101G]

I have long understood that according to Scriptures, the man Jesus wasn't "God", rather, was sent by God.

Is it then your understanding of Scripture, that the Wisdom of God, the Love of God, the Spirit and Word of God became Flesh in the person of Jesus? And so then, when Jesus said HE was with His Father before the world was, and before Abraham, HE is speaking about the Wisdom, Love, Spirit and Word of God that was obviously "with God"?

don't mean to get into your conversation. but these are the right questions to be asked. was the man Jesus ... "WITH" .... God? it is interesting to hear a response to a question such as this.

may 101G make a suggestion concerning this term "WITH". as a companion, that is one's own self, as a NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE, but is of the same SORT? meaning the same one person. as in the scriptures states, ...... John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and God said, Isaiah 45:6 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else." if there is none beside him, (ONE PERSON), how can there be another .... "WITH" .... him? only if the another is he, him-self EQUALLY SHARED. scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" EQUAL WITH? this have to be the same one person, or God lied, (God forbid), but when he said, " that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.", or Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:" then there has to be a answer to God testomony about him-self. but he gives us the answer..... Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." the only Saviour is JESUS the Christ, (God himself in flesh). but how? as a separate and distinct person? if so, that would violate what he said about him being "ALONE" and there is no one else. but as said, "EQUALLY SHARED", yes, just as the Greek term, "ANOTHER", G243 allos clearly states. a complete study of G243 allos, which 101G suggest one to study of the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words which give the best definition of the English term "ANOTHER". here in this definition lay the clarification of the understanding of "WITH". not a separate and distinct person, but the same one person shared in flesh.

101G.

 

[Studyman]

don't mean to get into your conversation. but these are the right questions to be asked. was the man Jesus ... "WITH" .... God? it is interesting to hear a response to a question such as this.

To be clear, I am not asking if the "MAN", the mortal human Jesus, was with God before the world was, because I don't believe humans existed before Adam. And I believe the man Jesus was a human being.

So I welcome the discussion, but I want to make sure you get my question right.

Thanks 101G

 

[101G]

To be clear, I am not asking if the "MAN", the mortal human Jesus, was with God before the world was, because I don't believe humans existed before Adam. And I believe the man Jesus was a human being.

So I welcome the discussion, but I want to make sure you get my question right.

Thanks 101G

thanks, and correct, flesh and blood was not at the beginning, when GOD, the Spirit, the "LORD" Jesus made all things.

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Is it then your understanding of Scripture, that the Wisdom of God, the Love of God, the Righteousness of God, the Spirit and Word of God became Flesh in the person of Jesus? And so then, when Jesus said HE was with His Father before the world was, and before Abraham, HE is speaking about the Wisdom, Love, Righteousness, Spirit and Word of God that was obviously "with God"?

Please let me know if I am understanding your position correctly.

Thanks for your reflexion an question, Studyman.
The concept “become flesh” means that such Light, Word, Wisdom, Love of God are manifested in a person with a given body, sex, ethnicity, language… a historical person, like Yeshuah of Nazareth. Actually, the term "manifest" is also used in Scripture (1 Tim 3:16)

When Jesus said He was before Abraham, he means that the eternal Word that He represents precedes Abraham and is more important than any particular historical person in which such Word is manifested. So, there is no reason to boast or brag about being a descendent of follower of a specific Prophet or Messenger from God, to the detriment of others.

Let me explain this further, based con the context of the passage:

The Jews that opposed Jesus boasted to have Abraham as his father and had Abraham in high esteem and had Jesus in low esteem. Abraham was honored. Jesus biological affiliation with Joseph was questioned. Abraham had existed many centuries ago. Jesus was very young.

Jesus then lets them know two things:

1. First, that they do not really have Abraham in high esteem. It is all bluff, because they are evil. If they really honored Abraham, they would be as good as Abraham was.
2. Second, that they should not base their self-esteem in a genetic linage from Abraham, because The Word of God (represented at that moment in Jesus) exists before Abraham. Not just in chronology, but in transcendence. Remember that in Jewish culture, to be older also implies to be more important.

So, the Word transcends nationalities, dispensations, historical characters, and sacred writings.
The Word of God is eternal because God has always communicated his knowledge, wisdom, love and power to his creatures. Not just in this planet, of course.
Have you thought, my friend, how God conveyed his message to intelligent beings in other planets, throughout this universe, and perhaps in past or future universes? Will there be many "Yeshuas of Nazareth"? Millions of them?

I believe there have been /are / will be millions of Manifestations of God as that we find in Jesus, but the ultimate Christ (the process of God conveying his Word, Light, Wisdom, Love) is one and the same, forever and ever.

 

[synergy]

Thanks for your reflexion an question, Studyman.
The concept “become flesh” means that such Light, Word, Wisdom, Love of God are manifested in a person with a given body, sex, ethnicity, language… a historical person, like Yeshuah of Nazareth. Actually, the term "manifest" is also used in Scripture (1 Tim 3:16)

When Jesus said He was before Abraham, he means that the eternal Word that He represents precedes Abraham and is more important than any particular historical person in which such Word is manifested. So, there is no reason to boast or brag about being a descendent of follower of a specific Prophet or Messenger from God, to the detriment of others.

Let me explain this further, based con the context of the passage:

The Jews that opposed Jesus boasted to have Abraham as his father and had Abraham in high esteem and had Jesus in low esteem. Abraham was honored. Jesus biological affiliation with Joseph was questioned. Abraham had existed many centuries ago. Jesus was very young.

Jesus then lets them know two things:

1. First, that they do not really have Abraham in high esteem. It is all bluff, because they are evil. If they really honored Abraham, they would be as good as Abraham was.
2. Second, that they should not base their self-esteem in a genetic linage from Abraham, because The Word of God (represented at that moment in Jesus) exists before Abraham. Not just in chronology, but in transcendence. Remember that in Jewish culture, to be older also implies to be more important.

So, the Word transcends nationalities, dispensations, historical characters, and sacred writings.
The Word of God is eternal because God has always communicated his knowledge, wisdom, love and power to his creatures. Not just in this planet, of course.
Have you thought, my friend, how God conveyed his message to intelligent beings in other planets, throughout this universe, and perhaps in past or future universes? Will there be many "Yeshuas of Nazareth"? Millions of them?

I believe there have been /are / will be millions of Manifestations of God as that we find in Jesus, but the ultimate Christ (the process of God conveying his Word, Light, Wisdom, Love) is one and the same, forever and ever.

Have you ever thought about what Jesus meant when he said that he alone is the sole Mediator between man and God? Would you want Muhammad to mediate on your behalf?

(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

[Studyman]

Thanks for your reflexion an question, Studyman.
The concept “become flesh” means that such Light, Word, Wisdom, Love of God are manifested in a person with a given body, sex, ethnicity, language… a historical person, like Yeshuah of Nazareth. Actually, the term "manifest" is also used in Scripture (1 Tim 3:16)

When Jesus said He was before Abraham, he means that the eternal Word that He represents precedes Abraham and is more important than any particular historical person in which such Word is manifested. So, there is no reason to boast or brag about being a descendent of follower of a specific Prophet or Messenger from God, to the detriment of others.

Let me explain this further, based con the context of the passage:

The Jews that opposed Jesus boasted to have Abraham as his father and had Abraham in high esteem and had Jesus in low esteem. Abraham was honored. Jesus biological affiliation with Joseph was questioned. Abraham had existed many centuries ago. Jesus was very young.

Jesus then lets them know two things:

1. First, that they do not really have Abraham in high esteem. It is all bluff, because they are evil. If they really honored Abraham, they would be as good as Abraham was.
2. Second, that they should not base their self-esteem in a genetic linage from Abraham, because The Word of God (represented at that moment in Jesus) exists before Abraham. Not just in chronology, but in transcendence. Remember that in Jewish culture, to be older also implies to be more important.

So, the Word transcends nationalities, dispensations, historical characters, and sacred writings.
The Word of God is eternal because God has always communicated his knowledge, wisdom, love and power to his creatures. Not just in this planet, of course.
Have you thought, my friend, how God conveyed his message to intelligent beings in other planets, throughout this universe, and perhaps in past or future universes? Will there be many "Yeshuas of Nazareth"? Millions of them?

I believe there have been /are / will be millions of Manifestations of God as that we find in Jesus, but the ultimate Christ (the process of God conveying his Word, Light, Wisdom, Love) is one and the same, forever and ever.

Thank you for answering my question.

Yes, I have long believed that the Faithful are being prepared to be kings and priests in the Kingdom of God, and that Jesus was the "First Fruit" or the first of many human beings to become such a Priest. And I've long believed there is more to God's Kingdom than Earth, given the countless galaxies and unknown worlds that HE also created. And eternity is a long time, and it seems God has been busy throughout history, so it seems HE has a plan to keep His Priest's busy as well. I don't believe HE exists in the same realm of "Time" that HE created for me, and I know HE has access to the past, and the present, which I have no power to access.

But to know or understand these things is beyond my understanding at present, and although my understanding of the Scriptures continues to grow and develop as time goes on, the pressure and Godliness of the religions of this world that surrounds me, that the Scriptures warn about over and over and over, including the Lord's Christ, does take its toll.

Nevertheless, it is good for men to have such discussions in my view, in search of the eternal truths of God. And I truly appreciate the time you set aside to share your thoughts with me.

Happy Sabbath my brother.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Have you ever thought about what Jesus meant when he said that he alone is the sole Mediator between man and God? Would you want Muhammad to mediate on your behalf?

(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

At the time 1 Tim 2:5 was written, Jesus was the "incarnation" of the Word of God. All other competing messiahs of his time were false.
However, when Moses lived, Moses was the mediator between God and men for Israel.

In the end of the day, it is not the historical character himself, but the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit, which dwells in Noah, Moses, Jesus or Mohammed, which dwells in you and me, which is the "intercessor" or connection between God and us.
It is the Holy Spirit which makes us reflect on the life of Jesus, accept The Word, and be reconciled with our Father.

Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. (Romans 8:26)

 

[mikesw]

At the time 1 Tim 2:5 was written, Jesus was the "incarnation" of the Word of God. All other competing messiahs of his time were false.
However, when Moses lived, Moses was the mediator between God and men for Israel.

In the end of the day, it is not the historical character himself, but the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit, which dwells in Noah, Moses, Jesus or Mohammed, which dwells in you and me, which is the "intercessor" or connection between God and us.
It is the Holy Spirit which makes us reflect on the life of Jesus, accept The Word, and be reconciled with our Father.

Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. (Romans 8:26)

Of course you are here because this is an open apologetics forum. But you have gone into deep denigration of the nature of Christ. I would adjure (entreat) you by the Most Holy God to avoid being so disrespectful here. your comment here verges on the situation addressed in this passage
Matthew 12:22–32 (ESV)

22Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw.
23And all the people were amazed, and said, “Can this be the Son of David?”
24But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons.”
25Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
26And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
27And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
28But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.
30Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Of course you are here because this is an open apologetics forum. But you have gone into deep denigration of the nature of Christ. I would adjure (entreat) you by the Most Holy God to avoid being so disrespectful here.

I respectfully but firmly reject your statements.
I love Jesus and therefore I strive to honor Him with every single word written in this Forum and with my attitude to all Forum members, including you.

If you don't know how to manage a debate with a person who holds a different theological perspective, then please don't debate.
There are thousands of ways you can serve Christ other than debating.

This is the last time I address you directly, my brother. I am clicking on the option "Ignore" under your name. Therefore, I won't be able to read your posts.
I wish for you, your family, work and friends all the blessings of Our Father.

 

[mikesw]

I respectfully but firmly reject your statements.
I love Jesus and therefore I strive to honor Him with every single word written in this Forum and with my attitude to all Forum members, including you.

If you don't know how to manage a debate with a person who holds a different theological perspective, then please don't debate.
There are thousands of ways you can serve Christ other than debating.

This is the last time I address you directly, my brother.
I wish for you, your family, work and friends all the blessings of Our Father.

I'm just cautioning you for your sake (maybe others too) that you excessively denigrated Jesus. There was somewhat an analogy in the Matthean passage. Your doctrine is to remove the glory that is Christ's in order to merge him as either one of the saints of old or as one of he false prophets. God sent his Son if perhaps contextually the Jews would listen to him. This is not some common prophet nor one of the false messiahs and prophets. You perhaps can turn away from that dishonor of Christ and realize his name is above every name. It can hardly be seen as respectful debate when dishonoring Christ when debating with Christians. It hardly an be effective either.

 

[TomL]

I cannot thank you enough for your kind approach and words, Studyman.
God bless you always.
I will try to comment on each of the examples you have quoted. I hope this can be useful.

“After these things an email appeared in my Inbox saying “I’m your ex-girlfriend, Lorena. Do you remember me?”
Is the e-mail a Personal being… someone called Lorena? Obviously not.
The “I am your shield” in the verse refers to the author of the Word or Message: God.

“You have rejected the warning from President Putin. So he has also rejected your offer”
Is the warning a personal being? Obviously not.
The “he” in this verse refers to God, the Author of the Word or Message.

Same as above: the “he” is the author of the Word or Message.

Same as above.

Same case as the examples above,

This is a genuine and complex personalization of the Word of God. I beg you to read Proverb 8 to see a similar case.
Let me know if sounds familiar with John 1.

8 Does not wisdom cry out,
and understanding lift up her voice?
2 She stands on the top of high places,
by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She cries out at the gates,
at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
and my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple, understand wisdom,
and you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Hear, for I will speak of excellent things,
and from the opening of my lips will be right things;
7 for my mouth will speak truth,
and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;
there is nothing crooked or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
and right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
and knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 for wisdom is better than rubies,
and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
and find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
pride and arrogance
and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule,
and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me early will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
yes, enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold,
yes, than fine gold, and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness,
in the midst of the paths of justice,
21 that I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
and I will fill their treasuries.
22 “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way,
before His works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth,
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills I was brought forth;
26 while as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
or the first dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when He established the clouds above,
when He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 when He gave to the sea His decree,
that the waters should not pass His commandment,
when He appointed the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him;
and I was daily His delight,
rejoicing always before Him,
31 rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth,
and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore listen to me, O you children,
for blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise,
and do not refuse it.
34 Blessed is the man who hears me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
and will obtain favor of the Lord;
36 but he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
all those who hate me love death.”


Same as previous.

Lets see you believe wisdom a female who lives with prudence is the pre -incarnate Jesus Christ

but before these came into being Jehovah was without wisdom?

Really?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you for answering my question.

Yes, I have long believed that the Faithful are being prepared to be kings and priests in the Kingdom of God, and that Jesus was the "First Fruit" or the first of many human beings to become such a Priest. And I've long believed there is more to God's Kingdom than Earth, given the countless galaxies and unknown worlds that HE also created. And eternity is a long time, and it seems God has been busy throughout history, so it seems HE has a plan to keep His Priest's busy as well. I don't believe HE exists in the same realm of "Time" that HE created for me, and I know HE has access to the past, and the present, which I have no power to access.

But to know or understand these things is beyond my understanding at present, and although my understanding of the Scriptures continues to grow and develop as time goes on, the pressure and Godliness of the religions of this world that surrounds me, that the Scriptures warn about over and over and over, including the Lord's Christ, does take its toll.

I admire your humbleness that leads you to explore and learn, even if you discover something that challenges your previous views.
Sometimes I think we can only find God within our uncertainty, within our doubt, precisely because He is the Absolute Truth and the source of our faith.
If we felt absolutely certain about every doctrine, our spiritual growth would come to a halt.
If there is one single certainty I want to keep, is that God loves me. I'm willing to deal with uncertainty in everything else.

Nevertheless, it is good for men to have such discussions in my view, in search of the eternal truths of God. And I truly appreciate the time you set aside to share your thoughts with me.

We Baha'is also believe that God's guidance many times emerge from open, sincere discussion among people. I understand that Quakers and Jews also do it as part of their religious traditions.

Happy Sabbath my brother.

Happy Sabbath to you as well, Studyman.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Lets see you believe wisdom a female who lives with prudence is the pre -incarnate Jesus Christ

I don't understand what you're saying here, Tom. Could you please rephrase?

but before these came into being Jehovah was without wisdom?

Really?

No.
In the allegory of Proverbs 8, Wisdom was always with God.
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. (verse 22)

 

[Runningman]

You flat out contradicted John 6:46. Only Jesus has seen the Father.

John 6:46 (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—this one has seen the Father.)

And? We all know Jesus has declared the Father. Tell us something we don't know.

That aligns perfectly with what I've been saying all along. Only those who know Jesus and have seen Jesus have seen the Father. See John 14:9.

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3 which is supported both Biblically and Logically.

Chronologically, only Jesus had seen the Father at the time, then later the disciples also saw the Father, according to Jesus. You can test this with a real life example. We will never get an eye upon the Father. For His glory would quite simply destroy us. However, you can see the Father by knowing Him. Jesus, being a good Son, is like his Father, but is not his Father. If you are a good son or daughter then you, too, can be like your Father. That's the idea about seeing Jesus to see the Father. If you are like Jesus then by extension you are like the Father and when people know you they, too, can know the Father. Why else did you think we are made to be like God?

Matthew 5​

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

​

Ephesians 4​

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.​

​

1 Peter 1​

16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.​

If you still don't believe, please provide the verse in which Jesus looked visually at the Father. So far you have shown nothing that distinguishes him from the disciples who also can "see" the Father.

John 14​

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.​

 

[synergy]

At the time 1 Tim 2:5 was written, Jesus was the "incarnation" of the Word of God. All other competing messiahs of his time were false.
However, when Moses lived, Moses was the mediator between God and men for Israel.

This is confusing. Who's the Baha'i Mediator now?

In the end of the day, it is not the historical character himself, but the Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit, which dwells in Noah, Moses, Jesus or Mohammed, which dwells in you and me, which is the "intercessor" or connection between God and us.
It is the Holy Spirit which makes us reflect on the life of Jesus, accept The Word, and be reconciled with our Father.

What are you saying? In the end of the day, Jesus is no longer needed to be mankind's Mediator? What exactly are you saying. Don't be shy, spit it out.

Likewise, the Spirit helps us in our weaknesses, for we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. (Romans 8:26)

Wonderful verse that signifies the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, another magnificent Trinitarian verse. Keep those Trinitarian verses coming!

 

[TomL]

I don't understand what you're saying here, Tom. Could you please rephrase?

In the proverb wisdom is a female and lives down the street with prudence

That is poor representation of Christ

No.
In the allegory of Proverbs 8, Wisdom was always with God.
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. (verse 22)

The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way,
Before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
Or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth;
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills was I brought forth:


The Holy Bible: King James Version (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.; Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Pr 8:22–25.

To me that speaks of wisdom being created brought forth to accomplish God's work

That would leave a time when God was without wisdom

But if you say wisdom always was and speaks of Christ then you are affirming Christ's eternal pre-existence

I do not see how that fits into the theology you have proclaimed

 

[mikesw]

Chronologically, only Jesus had seen the Father at the time, then later the disciples also saw the Father, according to Jesus. You can test this with a real life example. We will never get an eye upon the Father. For His glory would quite simply destroy us. However, you can see the Father by knowing Him. Jesus, being a good Son, is like his Father, but is not his Father. If you are a good son or daughter then you, too, can be like your Father. That's the idea about seeing Jesus to see the Father. If you are like Jesus then by extension you are like the Father and when people know you they, too, can know the Father. Why else did you think we are made to be like God?

...

John 14​

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.​

Really? That is what your offer for an argument to reduce the significance of the disciples seeing the Father by seeing Jesus?

 

[TomL]

Chronologically, only Jesus had seen the Father at the time, then later the disciples also saw the Father, according to Jesus. You can test this with a real life example. We will never get an eye upon the Father. For His glory would quite simply destroy us. However, you can see the Father by knowing Him. Jesus, being a good Son, is like his Father, but is not his Father. If you are a good son or daughter then you, too, can be like your Father. That's the idea about seeing Jesus to see the Father. If you are like Jesus then by extension you are like the Father and when people know you they, too, can know the Father. Why else did you think we are made to be like God?

Matthew 5​

48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

​

Ephesians 4​

24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.​

​

1 Peter 1​

16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.​

If you still don't believe, please provide the verse in which Jesus looked visually at the Father. So far you have shown nothing that distinguishes him from the disciples who also can "see" the Father.

John 14​

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.​

So who did the Old Testament saints see?

Who did they hear?

 

[Runningman]

Really? That is what your offer for an argument to reduce the significance of the disciples seeing the Father by seeing Jesus?

This is tantamount to an evasion. It doesn't address anything I just wrote.

 

[Runningman]

So who did the Old Testament saints see?

Who did they hear?

Dodge.

Address what I said.

Chronologically, only Jesus had seen the Father at the time, then later the disciples also saw the Father, according to Jesus. You can test this with a real life example. We will never get an eye upon the Father. For His glory would quite simply destroy us. However, you can see the Father by knowing Him. Jesus, being a good Son, is like his Father, but is not his Father. If you are a good son or daughter then you, too, can be like your Father. That's the idea about seeing Jesus to see the Father. If you are like Jesus then by extension you are like the Father and when people know you they, too, can know the Father. Why else did you think we are made to be like God?

Matthew 5
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Ephesians 4
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
1 Peter 1
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

If you still don't believe, please provide the verse in which Jesus looked visually at the Father. So far you have shown nothing that distinguishes him from the disciples who also can "see" the Father.

John 14
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.