The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Pancho Frijoles]

What else can I follow except the testimony of scripture. No one has ever shared anything here sufficient to deny the deity of Christ. Other people can think that their unsupportable doctrine is valid or that the Trinitarian doctrine is false. But why follow something they cannot prove.
How can they deny the nature of God and still claim to know God? If there is some human fallibility on their part, God does seem to cover that, as noted before. I shared the idea that if you brought a dozen roses to your wife and she has a severe allergic reaction to them. She then reminds you it was your girlfriend (before marriage) who liked roses. You hardly show knowledge of your wife. A mistake could happen where someone handed you roses when you asked for tulips. That would show that you knew the right thing for your wife but made a mistake in execution. That could be acceptable, despite the hefty hospital bill.

I see your point with the analogy of the roses when you ask for tulips.
The tulips God wants from us, though, is to be merciful to others. To love others and take care of others.
God does not demand from us to accept the Trinity to be forgiven, born again, have eternal life, bear the fruits of the Spirit.
He has never demanded that from us.

There is no single instance in the Bible in which Jesus had shown the slightest interest in requiring that from us.
In contrast, the Bible is full of references of what are the tulips God wants from us.
I could quote a long, long list of verses. Do you want that?

 

[Runningman]

The subject in John 6:46 and John 14:9 is the Father. Do you understand English? This proves that you either have a dirt poor understanding of English (typical for all Judaizing Unitarians) or a savage contempt for what's written in the Bible. Which is it?

John 6:46 (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—this one has seen the Father.)

John 14: 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Conclusion: Jesus is God.

You're conflating categories. Jesus is the revealer of the Father rather than being the Father himself. This is evident by the fact others can also "see" the Father.

John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

 

[mikesw]

I see your point with the analogy of the roses when you ask for tulips.
The tulips God wants from us, though, is to be merciful to others. To love others and take care of others.
God does not demand from us to accept the Trinity to be forgiven, born again, have eternal life, bear the fruits of the Spirit.
He has never demanded that from us.

There is no single instance in the Bible in which Jesus had shown the slightest interest in requiring that from us.
In contrast, the Bible is full of references of what are the tulips God wants from us.
I could quote a long, long list of verses. Do you want that?

wow. you really want to share something as a list of works to obtain your own idea of righteousness. You again are bringing home roses to your wife. It does not matter how many roses you get her.

You are still neglecting the deity of Christ as the one who reconciles you. Your defiance of Christ is the showstopper. You do not seem to catch on to the essence of the gospel. Like I shared earlier, the whole testimony of scriptures supports the centrality of Christ. There is no other religion or religious group that has the enduring testimony of scripture joined by external historical records

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I cannot thank you enough for your kind approach and words, Studyman.
God bless you always.
I will try to comment on each of the examples you have quoted. I hope this can be useful.

Gen. 15: 1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

“After these things an email appeared in my Inbox saying “I’m your ex-girlfriend, Lorena. Do you remember me?”
Is the e-mail a Personal being… someone called Lorena? Obviously not.
The “I am your shield” in the verse refers to the author of the Word or Message: God.

1 Sam. 15: 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, "he" hath also rejected thee from being king.

“You have rejected the warning from President Putin. So he has also rejected your offer”
Is the warning a personal being? Obviously not.
The “he” in this verse refers to God, the Author of the Word or Message.

2 Sam. 22: 31 As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: "he" is a buckler to all them that trust in him.

Same as above: the “he” is the author of the Word or Message.

1 Kings 2: 27 So Solomon thrust out Abiathar from being priest unto the LORD; that he might fulfil the word of the LORD, which "he" spake concerning the house of Eli in Shiloh.

Same as above.

1 Kings 16: 12 Thus did Zimri destroy all the house of Baasha, according to the word of the LORD, which "he" spake against Baasha by Jehu the prophet,

Same case as the examples above,

There are many more, and of course John 1.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This is a genuine and complex personalization of the Word of God. I beg you to read Proverb 8 to see a similar case.
Let me know if sounds familiar with John 1.

8 Does not wisdom cry out,
and understanding lift up her voice?
2 She stands on the top of high places,
by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She cries out at the gates,
at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
and my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple, understand wisdom,
and you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Hear, for I will speak of excellent things,
and from the opening of my lips will be right things;
7 for my mouth will speak truth,
and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;
there is nothing crooked or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
and right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
and knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 for wisdom is better than rubies,
and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
and find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
pride and arrogance
and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule,
and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me early will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
yes, enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold,
yes, than fine gold, and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness,
in the midst of the paths of justice,
21 that I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
and I will fill their treasuries.
22 “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way,
before His works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth,
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills I was brought forth;
26 while as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
or the first dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when He established the clouds above,
when He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 when He gave to the sea His decree,
that the waters should not pass His commandment,
when He appointed the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him;
and I was daily His delight,
rejoicing always before Him,
31 rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth,
and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore listen to me, O you children,
for blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise,
and do not refuse it.
34 Blessed is the man who hears me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
and will obtain favor of the Lord;
36 but he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
all those who hate me love death.”

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Same as previous.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

wow. you really want to share something as a list of works to obtain your own idea of righteousness.

You haven’t seen the list yet.
That list conveys verses from the Bible in which God demands his tulips. You believe in the Bible. So don't pre-judge.

. You do not seem to catch on to the essence of the gospel.

The essence of the Gospel is not a doctrine about the metaphysical nature of Christ.
The essence of the Gospel is doing what Christ asked us to do. Repent, be born again to a new life, a life of love.
In the eyes of God, making a sandwich out of genuine love for a poor children is INFINITELY MORE IMPORTANT than any doctrine about the nature of Christ. Do you accept this?

Like I shared earlier, the whole testimony of scriptures supports the centrality of Christ.

I agree. Making Christ the center of your life means following his example. Living his life. Loving your neighbor.
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)

 

[synergy]

An off-topic question, my friend, now that you mention the Septuagint. Do you accept the so called deuterocanonical books/texts as inspired by God? If there is a thread about that, I would like to know it.

I agree. We must recognize and respect the great work of the Jewish scholars that produced the Septuagint.
Certainly, they were not perfect as no translator is perfect. God's Word is powerful despite the imperfections of translators.
Just to come back to the point we started mentioning this translation, it is essential to keep in mind the Greek side of the New Testament... but not in order to understand the basic tenets of Theology. We need it to understand how such theology was explained so that it could be more easily understood by the target audience.

So, Theos may have been a word that Greeks used to describe the shared divine nature of Zeus, Hermes, Hades and Aphrodite. It was the word at hand, and the word used by the authors of the NT. Not necessarily the ideal word that Jewish-minded Paul would have wanted.
This is why it is important, again, to notice that for Paul, although there are many gods, for Christians there is only one Theos. And that Theos is a Person, called The Father.

As I said before, if Paul had preached and written letters to ancient Chinese, he would have had to use the word Tien, Heaven, for God. And then, we would be debating how to interpret "heaven" in a given verse.

That's why I emphasize so much to go back to the Jewish mindset of Christ and his disciples.


Let me comment on this in another post.

I agree that we must recognize and respect the great work of the Jewish scholars that produced the Septuagint. They did an excellent job of overloading and transposing Ancient Greek terms with OT meaning and the Apostles used that Greek OT to build legitimacy for their Greek Epistles.

The Apostles also did a great job of overloading and transposing Ancient Greek terms with Christian meaning. For example, the Ancient Greek word Baptize meant to sink in water. So a Greek warrior would say that he baptized a boat when he sunk that boat, not that it went through a Christian baptism. That word obviously was transposed properly. Same with God.

I'm sure the Apostles would have done an excellent job with Ancient Chinese terms too.

Therefore, there's no need to think that the Apostles fumbled the ball in communicating the Gospel to those who are willing to believe their writings, such as John 8:58 (Jesus is God).

 

[mikesw]

You haven’t seen the list yet.
That list conveys verses from the Bible in which God demands his tulips. You believe in the Bible. So don't pre-judge.

The essence of the Gospel is not a doctrine about the metaphysical nature of Christ.
The essence of the Gospel is doing what Christ asked us to do. Repent, be born again to a new life, a life of love.
In the eyes of God, making a sandwich out of genuine love for a poor children is INFINITELY MORE IMPORTANT than any doctrine about the nature of Christ. Do you accept this?

I agree. Making Christ the center of your life means following his example. Living his life. Loving your neighbor.
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)

Who needs a list of verses when everything you share is an abuse. You already show your ignorance of the nature of Christ. The vineyard owner in Luk 20:9-18. The owner is figuratively God the Father and Jesus the Son. Those who were killed before by the Israel people were the prophets, but by killing the Son, the Pharisees (and maybe all who followed them) were guilty of the blood of all the prophets. (matt 23:29-36). That happens because the Son of God was sent from heaven to them. The metaphysical nature is everything that underlies who Christ is and what he did among humanity.
Your points about Christ just convey ignorance of scripture.
Pretending that the divinity of Christ is of no significance to the gospel... that likes someone dropping you in the middle of Death Valley and leaving you a car for your escape but the car has no gasoline.

 

[synergy]

What's the issue about John 6:46?
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God. He has seen the Father.

Jesus always said He was from God. Jesus always talked about God as a Person who had sent him.
So, what's the problem?

And what's the issue about John 14:9?
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you such a long time, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. So how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’

Is there any one in the Forum, Trinitarian or Unitarian, who thinks that Jesus and His Father are the same person?
I think no one thinks that... well, I now remember we have a modalist brother. So my apologies.
But for those participating in this thread, I guess we all interpret the passage figuratively.
The Father manifests in Jesus his love, wisdom, Word, etc. so that knowing the One Sent by the Only True God is equivalent to knowing the Only and True God. This is what eternal life is all about, isn't it?

Before you fly off into tangents, why don't we explore the reason why I presented John 6:46 and John 14:9 in the first place. Maybe you can answer this question: Who appeared and spoke the words in Ex 3 when you take into account the following verses:

1. Ex 3:6 declares that it's God speaking but
2. John 6:46 precludes the possibility that it's the Father appearing to anyone except Christ but
3. John 14:9 allows the Father to be seen when one sees Jesus, the Preincarnate Jesus in the case of Ex 3.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3 which is supported both Biblically and Logically.

 

[Studyman]

I cannot thank you enough for your kind approach and words, Studyman.
God bless you always.
I will try to comment on each of the examples you have quoted. I hope this can be useful.

“After these things an email appeared in my Inbox saying “I’m your ex-girlfriend, Lorena. Do you remember me?”
Is the e-mail a Personal being… someone called Lorena? Obviously not.
The “I am your shield” in the verse refers to the author of the Word or Message: God.

“You have rejected the warning from President Putin. So he has also rejected your offer”
Is the warning a personal being? Obviously not.
The “he” in this verse refers to God, the Author of the Word or Message.

Same as above: the “he” is the author of the Word or Message.

Same as above.

Same case as the examples above,

This is a genuine and complex personalization of the Word of God. I beg you to read Proverb 8 to see a similar case.
Let me know if sounds familiar with John 1.

8 Does not wisdom cry out,
and understanding lift up her voice?
2 She stands on the top of high places,
by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She cries out at the gates,
at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
and my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple, understand wisdom,
and you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Hear, for I will speak of excellent things,
and from the opening of my lips will be right things;
7 for my mouth will speak truth,
and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;
there is nothing crooked or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
and right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
and knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 for wisdom is better than rubies,
and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
and find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
pride and arrogance
and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule,
and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me early will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
yes, enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold,
yes, than fine gold, and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness,
in the midst of the paths of justice,
21 that I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
and I will fill their treasuries.
22 “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way,
before His works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth,
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills I was brought forth;
26 while as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
or the first dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when He established the clouds above,
when He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 when He gave to the sea His decree,
that the waters should not pass His commandment,
when He appointed the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him;
and I was daily His delight,
rejoicing always before Him,
31 rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth,
and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore listen to me, O you children,
for blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise,
and do not refuse it.
34 Blessed is the man who hears me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
and will obtain favor of the Lord;
36 but he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
all those who hate me love death.”


Same as previous.

A very compelling argument and you never have to beg me to read scripture. Yesterday was Trumpets, and as is our custom, we got together and discussed this shadow of things to come in our lives. Jerico, all the warnings to watch and be diligent, as 1 Peter teaches, as we wait for His Return and so on. We talked about how the worldly influence affects us and how its residue lingers until God roots it out, in His Good time. And we talked about how Jesus tells us we love darkness, but those who "do truth" will come to the Light for the express purpose to expose the darkness we know exists, and we want it rooted out, even though it sometimes brings humiliation or shame, which is the remedy for pride.

It's usually the kids that sting me or expose in me a lingering doctrine/belief from our old religious life, or a study. But sometimes it's just a chance meeting with someone, or in this case, an unknown friend willing to share with me something I had not considered.

This Proverbs verse, even though I have read it dozens of times, was the perfect scripture to make your point as I had not looked at it in this way before. And only one day after we spoke about deceptions that are hidden away in our minds, that God though Moses promised to clear out little by little, so we can bear it.

Thank you for risking your life as a friend, to show me something important about an error in my understanding. Truly there is no greater love.

 

[synergy]

If by "Divine Appearance" you mean the appearance of a Messenger from God, I agree it was a divine appearance.
If by "Divine Appearance" you mean the appearance of God, the Bible disagrees explicitly with you, as it says that it was a Messenger who spoke to Moses from the burning bush.

So please don't show arrogance when asking @Runningman if he understands that fact.
Start by asking yourself if you understand that fact.
In an ultimate analysis, nobody truly understands that fact !!

Actually the Bible records the following in Ex 3:6:

6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

Therefore, the Bible does confirm that the "Divine Appearance" mentioned in Ex 3 is the appearance of God.

 

[synergy]

Those verses do not teach that the Word of God was a Person.
Just like in hundreds of other instances, this is a just a figurative way of speaking.
Jews, Muslisms, Christians, Baha'i, we all use this language, and we never think we are talking about a person. Ask any Catholic theologian if those verses refer to a Person coming to visit Shemaia or to Nathan.

Consider these two verses:

For the word of God is alive, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

He had in His right hand seven stars, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. His appearance was like the sun shining brightly. (Revelation 1:16)

Why in the vision of the Book of Revelation the two-edged sword comes from the mouth of Christ?
Is Christ Himself the Word of God? Is Christ a Sword?
Christ speaks the words of God. The Word of God comes from his mouth. That's why Christ is referred, metaphorically, as the Word of God.
So, The Word of God is not a person. The Spirit of God is not a person. The Wisdom of God (Proverbs 6) is not a Person.
The Love of God is not a Person!
The Bible says "God is Love". Love is coeternal with God. So, John could also have started his gospel saying: "In the beginning there was Love. And Love was with God. And Love was God". That would not make the Love of God a distinct person within the Godhead.

The Greek NT makes the distinction between written word, spoken word, and the Word of God. English language, not so good.

the Koine Greek NT, λογος/λογω is for the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ, ρημα/ρηματι is for the spoken word, and λογον is for the written/recorded/memorized/spoken word.

John 1:14 mentions λογος who is the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ. The Word of God is clearly described as a Person in Rev 19:11-16, which Unitarians always conveniently skip over.

If one is not careful with Koine Greek then he ends up making a total mess of things.

 

[synergy]

You're conflating categories. Jesus is the revealer of the Father rather than being the Father himself. This is evident by the fact others can also "see" the Father.

You flat out contradicted John 6:46. Only Jesus has seen the Father.

John 6:46 (Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God—this one has seen the Father.)

John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

And? We all know Jesus has declared the Father. Tell us something we don't know.

John 14
6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

That aligns perfectly with what I've been saying all along. Only those who know Jesus and have seen Jesus have seen the Father. See John 14:9.

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3 which is supported both Biblically and Logically.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Actually the Bible records the following in Ex 3:6:

6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

That is true.
It is also true that the Bible records the following:
“The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush” (Exodus 3:2)

“This Moses, whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who appointed you a ruler and a judge?’ God sent as both ruler and redeemer by the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush. (Acts 7:35, 36)

This last verse explains that God called Moses for a mission, but He did it “by the hand of the messenger (angel)”.

So we have three options
1) God Himself appeared to Moses, and Stephen made up a fable of an angel.
2) A god sent another god as a messenger (something like Zeus sending Hermes)
3) God sent a messenger who is not God to speak and act on his behalf.

The third option is plausible because

• a Messenger can speak on behalf of He who sent him.
• God cannot be a messenger of someone else.
• God would not need a messenger if He wanted to speak directly.
• The Bible says that nobody has seen God. Although Moses wanted to hide his face the first time, he doesn’t seem to have had the need to hide it in the next “face to face” encounters. This is because Moses never saw God literally, physically.

Therefore, the Bible does confirm that the "Divine Appearance" mentioned in Ex 3 is the appearance of God.

 

[mikesw]

That is true.
It is also true that the Bible records the following:
“The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush” (Exodus 3:2)

“This Moses, whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who appointed you a ruler and a judge?’ God sent as both ruler and redeemer by the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush. (Acts 7:35, 36)

This last verse explains that God called Moses for a mission, but He did it “by the hand of the messenger (angel)”.

So we have three options
1) God Himself appeared to Moses, and Stephen made up a fable of an angel.
2) A god sent another god as a messenger (something like Zeus sending Hermes)
3) God sent a messenger who is not God to speak and act on his behalf.

The third option is plausible because

• a Messenger can speak on behalf of He who sent him.
• God cannot be a messenger of someone else.
• God would not need a messenger if He wanted to speak directly.
• The Bible says that nobody has seen God. Although Moses wanted to hide his face the first time, he doesn’t seem to have had the need to hide it in the next “face to face” encounters. This is because Moses never saw God literally, physically.

Only option 1 as God obviously works. Jesus is God and appears as the angel of the Lord. So you obviously miss that Jesus both is of the Godhead and is a messenger, as the one we see speaking and appearing before man. This is repeated in John 1. We see also Jesus speaking what he hears from the Father. Again this is a messenger function ... the logos ... the Word/message of God. Stephen says this angel gave them the law (v38). So your fable concept is fallacious.

Of course option 2 is blasphemous concept and anachronistic to the Israel background. Then option 3 is ludicrous since we don't seem to have any case where any angel or prophet spoke directly as God. The law is not seen as an angel's law but is God's law. Certainly we already observed that the distinction between Moses' viewing of God's back and Jesus being face-to-face in the Godhead are different ways of "seeing" God. You do not seem to learn anything in this discussion.

 

[Selah]

Just like in hundreds of other instances, this is a just a figurative way of speaking.
Jews, Muslisms, Christians, Baha'i, we all use this language, and we never think we are talking about a person. Ask any Catholic theologian if those verses refer to a Person coming to visit Shemaia or to Nathan.

Consider these two verses:

For the word of God is alive, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

He had in His right hand seven stars, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword. His appearance was like the sun shining brightly. (Revelation 1:16)

Why in the vision of the Book of Revelation the two-edged sword comes from the mouth of Christ?
Is Christ Himself the Word of God? Is Christ a Sword?
Christ speaks the words of God. The Word of God comes from his mouth. That's why Christ is referred, metaphorically, as the Word of God.
So, The Word of God is not a person. The Spirit of God is not a person. The Wisdom of God (Proverbs 6) is not a Person.
The Love of God is not a Person!
The Bible says "God is Love". Love is coeternal with God. So, John could also have started his gospel saying: "In the beginning there was Love. And Love was with God. And Love was God". That would not make the Love of God a distinct person within the Godhead.

Hola, Pancho.

Jesus Christ is the "Word of God.” After all, the Bible tells us so.

Jesus is God, and He wrote every single word of Truth in the Bible. Why? So that we could read it and study it and be set free!…for truly, the Truth will set us free.

John 1:1: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

And in Mark 13:23, Jesus tells us, "But take heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.”

John 8:31-32: Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

God bless you,
Selah

 

[TomL]

Again

• Bochim did not see God because nobody has seen God, according to the Bible.
• A messenger of God cannot be God by definition. God does not speak on behalf of someone else... and if God wanted to speak directly, then He wouldn't need a messenger
• When the angel says "I will never break my convenant with you" he is speaking on behalf of God.

In context it is the Father who is not seen. God was seen as the texts state. In this particular case he speaks in the first person of his covenant with Israel

The angel of the LORD is Jehovah

Judges 2:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. 2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? 3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. 4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept. 5 And they called the name of that place Bochim: and they sacrificed there unto the LORD.

The angel of the LORD stated I will never break my covenant with you.

 

[TomL]

Again

• Jacob did not saw God because nobody has seen God.
• A messenger (angel) of God cannot be God, by definition. God cannot be an instrument, servant or herald of someone else... and if God is speaking directly, why the need of a messenger?
• When the angel says "I am the God of Bethel", the angel is speaking in God's behalf.

You have not answered the question "What is an angel or messenger?" Please take a time to reflect and answer. Not necessarily here, in the Forum. Your answer yourself.

You are repeating yourself

It is the father who is not seen

Genesis 31:11–13 (LEB) — 11 Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Lift up your eyes and see—all the rams mounting the flock are streaked, speckled, and dappled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel where you anointed a stone pillar, where you made a vow to me. Now get up, go out from this land and return to the land of your birth.’

Here he is identified as the God of Bethel which in the reference is YHWH

God YHWH was seen

 

[TomL]

Dear Tom

The Bible says "No one has seen God at any time" (John 1:18)
Do you think that Manoah and his wife saw God?

In the New testament context this refers to the father

John 6:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 5:37 (KJV 1900) — 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Many text before us say God was seen

It was other than the Father but God

 

[synergy]

That is true.
It is also true that the Bible records the following:
“The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush” (Exodus 3:2)

“This Moses, whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who appointed you a ruler and a judge?’ God sent as both ruler and redeemer by the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush. (Acts 7:35, 36)

This last verse explains that God called Moses for a mission, but He did it “by the hand of the messenger (angel)”.

So we have three options
1) God Himself appeared to Moses, and Stephen made up a fable of an angel.
2) A god sent another god as a messenger (something like Zeus sending Hermes)
3) God sent a messenger who is not God to speak and act on his behalf.

The third option is plausible because

• a Messenger can speak on behalf of He who sent him.
• God cannot be a messenger of someone else.
• God would not need a messenger if He wanted to speak directly.
• The Bible says that nobody has seen God. Although Moses wanted to hide his face the first time, he doesn’t seem to have had the need to hide it in the next “face to face” encounters. This is because Moses never saw God literally, physically.

Option 4: God Himself appeared to Moses, and Stephen was right in that Whom is seen is not the Father but is the Angel/Messenger of God who is the Logos of God.

There is no indication in Verse 6 that there is a non-God spokesman/angel.speaking on behalf of God. All Prophets and Angels would always and clearly identify themselves as a spokesman of God There is no indication of that here. In fact, it can be said that the Unitarian view renders that person an imposter.

It's very important to realize that it's the human person (Moses, Stephen) who puts forward the name "Angel of God". It's the truth from our human perspective that it is the Preincarnate or Postincarnate Jesus that is seen by the human person. Verse 6 confirms it is God speaking but it is the Pre or Post incarnate Jesus that is seen by the human person. That perfectly aligns with the Bible, logic, and nobody is rendered a fable maker or an imposter.

Conclusion: Jesus is the "I Am" OT God mentioned in Ex 3 which is supported both Biblically and Logically.

 

[Studyman]

I cannot thank you enough for your kind approach and words, Studyman.
God bless you always.
I will try to comment on each of the examples you have quoted. I hope this can be useful.

“After these things an email appeared in my Inbox saying “I’m your ex-girlfriend, Lorena. Do you remember me?”
Is the e-mail a Personal being… someone called Lorena? Obviously not.
The “I am your shield” in the verse refers to the author of the Word or Message: God.

“You have rejected the warning from President Putin. So he has also rejected your offer”
Is the warning a personal being? Obviously not.
The “he” in this verse refers to God, the Author of the Word or Message.

Same as above: the “he” is the author of the Word or Message.

Same as above.

Same case as the examples above,

This is a genuine and complex personalization of the Word of God. I beg you to read Proverb 8 to see a similar case.
Let me know if sounds familiar with John 1.

8 Does not wisdom cry out,
and understanding lift up her voice?
2 She stands on the top of high places,
by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She cries out at the gates,
at the entry of the city, at the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
and my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple, understand wisdom,
and you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Hear, for I will speak of excellent things,
and from the opening of my lips will be right things;
7 for my mouth will speak truth,
and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness;
there is nothing crooked or perverse in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
and right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
and knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 for wisdom is better than rubies,
and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
and find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;
pride and arrogance
and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule,
and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me early will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
yes, enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold,
yes, than fine gold, and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness,
in the midst of the paths of justice,
21 that I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
and I will fill their treasuries.
22 “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of His way,
before His works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting,
from the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth,
when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
before the hills I was brought forth;
26 while as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
or the first dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 when He established the clouds above,
when He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 when He gave to the sea His decree,
that the waters should not pass His commandment,
when He appointed the foundations of the earth,
30 then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him;
and I was daily His delight,
rejoicing always before Him,
31 rejoicing in the habitable part of His earth,
and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore listen to me, O you children,
for blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction, and be wise,
and do not refuse it.
34 Blessed is the man who hears me,
watching daily at my gates,
waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
and will obtain favor of the Lord;
36 but he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
all those who hate me love death.”


Same as previous.

Please allow me to apologize for my rambling reply to this post. We had just gathered the day before and talked in length about the importance of heeding the warnings in Scripture, and how important it is to allow Scriptures to correct us, (renewed in the spirit of our mind) even in long held beliefs. Then the very next day, a belief I have long held was challenged by a compelling scriptural argument. It was significant to me. But I should have just thanked you instead of rambling on like a fool.

I would like to continue in this discussion with you though, for the purpose of edification, if that is OK, and ask a couple of questions if I may.

I have long understood that according to Scriptures, the man Jesus wasn't "God", rather, was sent by God.

Is it then your understanding of Scripture, that the Wisdom of God, the Love of God, the Righteousness of God, the Spirit and Word of God became Flesh in the person of Jesus? And so then, when Jesus said HE was with His Father before the world was, and before Abraham, HE is speaking about the Wisdom, Love, Righteousness, Spirit and Word of God that was obviously "with God"?

Please let me know if I am understanding your position correctly.

And thank you.