Runningman
Well-known member
Think of it this way... Jesus and the disciples have both seen the Father. Proves that Jesus isn't God. Add that to the list of things not exclusive to Jesus.
The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
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Runningman
Well-known member
Tsk tsk tsk. You clearly aren't very good at this.
Jesus glory was his death and crucifixion according to Scripture. So the glory Jesus was referring to before the world existed was with God in a prophetic sense, not a literal sense. Revelation and Hebrews prove such since he wasn't actually crucified before the world was, therefore he received his glory at the cross.
Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
Ignores the word order of the Greek.
Here's the correct version.
Philippians 2
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.
False. I did answer your question. As proof, this is what I wrote:
To be clear, you don't believe Moses saw God. Correct? A non-response from you will be a "yes" to my question.
Trinitarians always are manly, and women are womanly. Since the Word of God was the Preincarnate Jesus in OT times then the verses below answer your question. In fact, these verses clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)
- 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
- 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,
Runningman
Well-known member
You have now reframed the question. You originally referred to "God (Preincarnate Jesus)" when Scripture proves that Jesus didn't pre-exist. Now you just look silly for switching it to "God." 1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Chronicles 17:3 refer to the word as a thing or something spoken, not a person named "the word of God" since the "word of God" speaks of God in the third person perspective. The New Testament doesn't even call Jesus the Word anywhere either.
And you didn't show a verse with Jesus in it. Try again.
I also might add, 1 John 1:1-2 refers to the Word as an it with frequency....
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
No, because Trinitarism doesn't consider valid both the 0.5% and the 99.5% when it comes to your relationship with God.
So, you cannot sum up 99.5 + 5 = 100.
Trinitarianism demands you, in all contexts, to love and worship
- a class or group of three persons or
- a person who is divine, as long as you admit that there are other two out there also expecting to be loved and worshiped the same way.
Trinitarism (Protestant Trinitarism) demands you to stick to the 0.5% of verses that use the term "God" as a class, and make of that 0.5% the foundation of your faith and practice. Furthermore, it does it without having those 0.5% of verses unequivocally telling you that God encompasses three specific persons. For example, Elohim could be four persons. The Angel of Jehovah could be the fourth person. Nothing prevents you to believe that.
You have a dirt poor understanding of history my friend. Arianism was the predominant belief of the Church in the 3rd century. Even Emperor Constantine was an Arian. Fortunately, the Emperor wanted peace for his Empire and held a Council to establish the truth. The truth prevailed, against the beliefs of Constantine and the majority. And the rest is history as they saym
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
The question here is "Are you interested in making the 99.5% fit within the discordant 0.5%, or the discordant 0.5% fit within the 99.5%?"
Call me lazy, but I am personally interested in making the 0.5% fit within the overwhelming 99.5%
And I repeat: it is not only a matter of percentages, which in itself should be pretty clear.
It is a matter of who pronounced those 99.5% where, when.
- The weight of Shema, Israel, for example, is enormous, because it is the foundation of the Torah, and the foundation of the most important commandment according to Jesus Himself, who is the center of your religion.
- The weight of Jesus having an intimate conversation with his Father (those two persons who you regard as two persons of the Trinity) should have a tremendous interest to analyze who Jesus thought his Father was, and who Jesus thought he himself was. Remember the example of Beethoven and Mozart talking in Vienna.
- Jesus saying that He has a God (even the exalted Jesus, in the Book of Revelation) and that such God is specifically our Father (not a Trinity) should have a tremendous weight.
OK, now we are talking, my friend. Now we are talking...
I basically agree with what you have just said.
Runningman
Well-known member
The council of Nicaea affirmed that Jesus is "of the same substance" as the Father in order to compromise. For the Arian's they could use it to support Jesus being the Son of God while the Trinitarians could use it to support Jesus being God. Given the instability in Constantine's empire, he wanted to bring stability to Christianity and a compromise helped. However, those who ended up continuing to reject the Trinitarian heresy after the council of Nicaea faced persecution, exiles, imprisonments, violence. This is all documented through history. You won't be allowed to white wash it here and if you need sources they can be provided.
So Trinitarianism got a boost by the government and it became cultural through fear of persecution. You people can't persecute anyone anymore. Not many easily believe you anymore and you're losing numbers. It's also not intuitive to find the Trinity in the Bible. It's neither explained or described,.
I see that you didn't "man up" to answer my question. As I told you before, a non-response from you will be a "yes" to my question. That directly contradicts your belief that God is invisible.
1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)
- 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
- 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,
Jesus is called many names, everyone of them referring to the same person. Are you denying that the Word of God or the Son of Man or a dozen other names are not his names? A non-answer from you will be taken as a white flag from you.
John 1 makes it clear that the Word of God is a He, unless you have a version that doesn't understand Greek.
charismaticlady
Active member
I remember almost 50 years ago that I also did not think Jesus was God, that the divine attributes of glory that the Word of God who is God had before becoming human stayed gone. But we see in John 17 that Jesus asked the Father for those glories back, namely omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, bringing Him back to wholly God.
John 17:4 "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
Question for you: From John 1:1 did you believe the Word was God?
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
What do you mean by sayung that your Trinitarian brothers and sisters will be a "shadow"?
Be careful with your words, friend.
The Messenger of YHWH is the pre-incarnate Christ (YHWH).
civic
Well-known member
Yes indeed !
I don't understand the hangup you have with loving multiple Persons. My family has multiple Persons and I love my family and I love them all personally/individually. It's not an either/or situation with my family. It's both my family and each Person in it. Tell me one person who says I do not love my family because I love them individually?
civic
Well-known member
nope the disciples never saw the Father. they saw Jesus not the Father.
are you all of a sudden a modalist ?
nice try.
We discussed the Shema before, you and me. I can try to find that conversation if you're interested.
Are you referring to John 17:3? I wrote about it within the context of its surrounding verses 1-5 with someone else. I can forward you what I wrote.
Excellent! How is that fact compatible with Unitarianism?OK, now we are talking, my friend. Now we are talking...
I basically agree with what you have just said.
Try reading John 1:1-14 from the dozens of Bibles that has those verses correctly translated from the Greek. My preference is the NKJV. I'm not a KJVO advocate by the way.
Runningman
Well-known member
This is bad logic. For starters, the "word of God" is never said to be a person in Old Testament Scripture. Begin with Genesis 1 where God spoke words and they weren't identified as a person. Please prove that where "the word of God" speaking that this is a person as opposed to God's words coming to someone because God spoke words. You can't. You also don't have a verse that directly and explicitly says "Jesus is the Word." It's bad theology.
Runningman
Well-known member
They'll be a shadow of their former selves. It means someone or something that is not as strong, powerful, or useful as it once was, just to be clear.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/shadow-of-former-self
Runningman
Well-known member
This is the one that you didn't factor into your "Unitarian's demise" comment. It completely debunks it.
John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”
