The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

I remember almost 50 years ago that I also did not think Jesus was God, that the divine attributes of glory that the Word of God who is God had before becoming human stayed gone. But we see in John 17 that Jesus asked the Father for those glories back, namely omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, bringing Him back to wholly God.

John 17:4 "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
How do you figure that when in John 17 Jesus gave the disciples that glory?

John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—

Question for you: From John 1:1 did you believe the Word was God?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Different from God. Contextually the word is either a god with The God or someone or something godly. I favor the personification approach. I just base it mostly on the Old Testament where the Word is never said to be a person and 1 John 1:1-2 that describes the Word as a thing.
 
your Trinitarian brothers and sisters
I also might add, I love your approach that suggests we can be brothers and sisters. I thought that too, at the beginning, but the reality is they probably hate you and believe you have no place in heaven. They aren't your brothers and sisters and if they are they have a lot of cleanup to do to earn that place. Don't hold your breath. They think you're going to hell man. Why do you talk about them like they're your family?
 
This is bad logic. For starters, the "word of God" is never said to be a person in Old Testament Scripture. Begin with Genesis 1 where God spoke words and they weren't identified as a person. Please prove that where "the word of God" speaking that this is a person as opposed to God's words coming to someone because God spoke words. You can't.
Nope. What you're promoting is a false dichotomy. This is not an either/or situation. God doesn't reveal everything at once. The same thing with God's Word. Revelation is gradual and progressive over time and forever more. Heaven waits to be revealed to us.
You also don't have a verse that directly and explicitly says "Jesus is the Word." It's bad theology.
Jesus is called many names, everyone of them referring to the same person. Are you denying that the Word of God or the Son of Man or a dozen other names are not his names? A non-answer from you will be taken as a white flag from you.

John 1 makes it clear that the Word of God is a He, unless you have a version that doesn't understand Greek
 
This is the one that you didn't factor into your "Unitarian's demise" comment. It completely debunks it.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”
John 14:7 perfectly aligns with what we said. Only those who know and have seen Jesus have seen the Father.

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
 
How do you figure that when in John 17 Jesus gave the disciples that glory?

John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—
The "glory" that Jesus gave us were the gifts of the Spirit. Also, the divine nature. Do you know about them, and if so, do you have any supernatural gifts of the Spirit? By the way, I was baptized in the Spirit and had gifts for a few years BEFORE I read in Titus 2 that Jesus is God. "13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." That verse blew my mind and I never doubted Him again.
Different from God. Contextually the word is either a god with The God or someone or something godly. I favor the personification approach. I just base it mostly on the Old Testament where the Word is never said to be a person and 1 John 1:1-2 that describes the Word as a thing.
You remember this verse someone showed you. I took note of this as I hadn't read it before. 1 Kings 2:22 But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying, 23 “Speak to Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, to all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the rest of the people, saying...
 
This is the one that you didn't factor into your "Unitarian's demise" comment. It completely debunks it.

John 14
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.”
The Son is not the Father. One verse ripped from the context doesn’t mean the Son is the Father.
 
Tsk tsk tsk. You clearly aren't very good at this.

Jesus glory was his death and crucifixion according to Scripture. So the glory Jesus was referring to before the world existed was with God in a prophetic sense, not a literal sense. Revelation and Hebrews prove such since he wasn't actually crucified before the world was, therefore he received his glory at the cross.

That is totally Pathetic

A verse that speaks of the past before the world was and you want to claim it refers to the future

LOL

Do you seriously think anyone would buy that absurd denial of scripture

add this

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Before becoming a man he was in the form of God. He thought and considered


Hello

Those things before being made man points to pre-existence



Hebrews 2
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
Does not address Phil 2:6





Revelation 13
8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
um

Revelation 13:8 (ESV) — 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

you ignore the many which read as above



Ignores the word order of the Greek.

Here's the correct version.

Philippians 2
5Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.
Still existing in the form of God
Still considering
before being made in human likeness

still points to pre-existence

your arguments are pitifully weak and transparent
 
John 14:7 perfectly aligns with what we said. Only those who know and have seen Jesus have seen the Father.

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
It doesn't alight with physically seeing the Father unless you and @civic are wanting to be funny and say that seeing Jesus means they were physically looking at the Father. Don't forget, God is invisible.
 
The Son is not the Father. One verse ripped from the context doesn’t mean the Son is the Father.
no Jesus said no one on several occasions has seen the Father and Paul says the same in many placed. Jesus meant physically seeing the Father with their own eyes and hearing with their physical ears.

Jesus then makes it spiritual to see His is the same as seeing the Father- They are One- ie the same God.
You are defining the context and meaning of words based around a subjective theology when the only common denominator is that since God is invisible then no one, not even Jesus, has physically seen Him. You are also conflating physical with spiritual sight. No one has actually seen the invisible God.
 
That is totally Pathetic

A verse that speaks of the past before the world was and you want to claim it refers to the future

LOL

Do you seriously think anyone would buy that absurd denial of scripture
How does quoting Scripture regarding Jesus not literally being slain before the world and then some more scripture regarding his being slain something that was his glory a denial of Scripture? You're over-using the false accusations. It eventually just sounds like you're running out of ideas to refute me with especially when it's perfectly clear that Christians, like stalwarts, are rearing up to address your false doctrines in numbers, daily, on the board.

add this

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Before becoming a man he was in the form of God. He thought and considered


Hello

Those things before being made man points to pre-existence




Does not address Phil 2:6
??

This version ignores the word order of the Greek. It also doesn't match the claims you made such as "Before becoming a man he was in the form of God" and "Those things before being made man points to pre-existence"

Furthermore, it doesn't match the context. As we have already discussed repeatedly, verse 5 is still there. Paul had addressed this letter to the church of Philippi in order to instruct them on how to have the mind of Jesus. All of the translations I have seen end verse 5 with a colon, meaning the standard interpretation of this passage after verse 5 is a list that follows from a previously related point. In other words, the list in Philippians 2:6-8 is related to having the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ is something attainable for the church of Philippi, but your interpretation doesn't allow for this because you're not respecting the context.

So is it your stance that Christians are God?
um

Revelation 13:8 (ESV) — 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

you ignore the many which read as above
What's your point?
Still existing in the form of God
Still considering
before being made in human likeness

still points to pre-existence

your arguments are pitifully weak and transparent
Paul was telling the Philippian church to also have that same mindset. Meaning that since the Philippian church aren't God, they don't need to think they are God, and keep in their mind that they were made in human likeness and the outward appearance of God. Philippians 2:5-8 isn't helpful for the points you're trying to make. You're not applying it to the correct context.
 
How does quoting Scripture regarding Jesus not literally being slain before the world and then some more scripture regarding his being slain something that was his glory a denial of Scripture? You're over-using the false accusations. It eventually just sounds like you're running out of ideas to refute me with especially when it's perfectly clear that Christians, like stalwarts, are rearing up to address your false doctrines in numbers, daily, on the board.

Hello

You denied his glory before the foundation of the world

John 17:5 (ESV) — 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

Hello

This is glory before the world was made

This is glory before he was being made flesh

You absurdly tried to project it into the future

add this

Philippians 2:5–8 (KJV 1900) — 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Before becoming a man he was in the form of God. He thought and considered


Hello

Those things before being made man points to pre-existence




Does not address Phil 2:6


??

This version ignores the word order of the Greek. It also doesn't match the claims you made such as "Before becoming a man he was in the form of God" and "Those things before being made man points to pre-existence"

Sorry no it does not

He could not be in the form of god while being made flesh in the form of an infant

hello

That does not even make sense


Furthermore, it doesn't match the context. As we have already discussed repeated, verse 5 is still there. Paul had addressed this letter to the church of Philippi in order to instruct them on how to have the mind of Jesus. All of the translations I have send end verse 5 with a colon, meaning the standard interpretation of this passage after verse 5 is a list that follows from a previously related point. In other words, the list in Philippians 2:6-8 is related to having the mind of Christ. The mind of Christ is something attainable for the church of Philippi, but your interpretation doesn't allow for this because you're not respecting the context.

The mind is a mind of humility.

Read the text instead of trying to defend your assumed theology

Philippians 2:1–4 (ESV) — 1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

So is it your stance that Christians are God?

This is absurd

The text is telling Christians to have a mind of humility, to consider others better than yourself. Christ is given as an example of this

Not to tell christian they are in the form of god

What's your point?

Paul was telling the Philippian church to also have that same mindset. Meaning that since the Philippian church aren't God, they don't need to think they are God, and keep in their mind that they were made in human likeness and the outward appearance of God. Philippians 2:5-8 isn't helpful for the points you're trying to make. You're not applying it to the correct context.
Of Humility

read

Philippians 2:3–4 (ESV) — 3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Philippians 2:3–4 (NIV) — 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

Philippians 2:3–4 (UASV) — 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with lowliness of mind consider others as more important than yourselves. 4 Everyone should look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

Philippians 2:3–4 (NASB 2020) — 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility consider one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.

Christ is then given as an example of this

One man is like another man but to consider others better than themselves

Christ existing in the form of God being

Hebrews 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped

This what context shows and


The point you are trying to avoid is before becoming a man


Christ existed in the form of God

had a mind which could consider and reflect humility

that is pre-existence
 
The "glory" that Jesus gave us were the gifts of the Spirit. Also, the divine nature.
I have proposed the same. I have multiple propositions for this, but one of the weaknesses with this interpretation is that Jesus was glorified with it "now" when before he already had the spiritual gifts and divine nature. The context deals more with the crucifixion of Jesus, where he said “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You."
Do you know about them, and if so, do you have any supernatural gifts of the Spirit? By the way, I was baptized in the Spirit and had gifts for a few years BEFORE I read in Titus 2 that Jesus is God. "13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." That verse blew my mind and I never doubted Him again.
Yes I have spiritual gifts.

Titus 2:13 doesn't say Jesus is God in the Greek. There is "the Great God" and there is "savior Jesus." They manipulate this verse often and point to Granville Sharp's rule for support, but how would that be when Paul opens up the letter to Titus by showing Jesus isn't God?

Titus 1
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.a 3In His own time He has made His word evident in the proclamation entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior.

4To Titus, my true child in our common faith:

Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

You remember this verse someone showed you. I took note of this as I hadn't read it before. 1 Kings 2:22 But the word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying, 23 “Speak to Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, to all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the rest of the people, saying...
The "someone" who wrote that to me is wrong about the way this phrase is used in the OT. The word of the Lord are the spoken words of the Lord, not a separate person. The "Word of the Lord" and the "Lord" don't speak to one another in Scripture. The "word of the Lord" isn't treated like an actual person. This describes either God's spoken words manifesting audibly or in a vision. I would also add, this interpretation of the "word of the Lord" being a pre-incarnate Jesus is fringe. I haven't seen any commentaries say such.
 
I have proposed the same. I have multiple propositions for this, but one of the weaknesses with this interpretation is that Jesus was glorified with it "now" when before he already had the spiritual gifts and divine nature. The context deals more with the crucifixion of Jesus, where he said “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You."

Yes I have spiritual gifts.

Titus 2:13 doesn't say Jesus is God in the Greek. There is "the Great God" and there is "savior Jesus." They manipulate this verse often and point to Granville Sharp's rule for support, but how would that be when Paul opens up the letter to Titus by showing Jesus isn't God?

Titus 1
1Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness, 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began.a 3In His own time He has made His word evident in the proclamation entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior.
Quite simply typically the term God was used as a proper name to denote the Father while lord was reserved for Jesus

but the bible calls Christ/the word God (adjectivally as deity- a class of being) here

John 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 20:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Titus 2:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

But here the justice is not that of God the Father but “of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” One definite article in the Greek (τοῦ, tou) governs both “God” and “Savior,” which are connected with καί (kai, and). The identical grammatical construction appears elsewhere in the epistle where Jesus Christ is called both “Lord and Savior” (2Pe 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18). In a case such as this, “the article is (naturally) omitted with the second of two phrases in apposition connected by καί [kai]”

regarding Titus 2:13

THIS INTERPRETATION HAS THE SUPPORT OF A.T. ROBINSON, P.W. SCHMIEDEL, MOULTON, BLASS DEBRUNNER, DANA AND MANTEY, BRUCE METZGER, REYMOND ETC

All expert Greek scholars

If you want to address sharps rule do so by finding an exception to it

Where two nouns are separate by "and" (Kia - greek) and the article appears only before the first noun
 
It doesn't alight with physically seeing the Father unless you and @civic are wanting to be funny and say that seeing Jesus means they were physically looking at the Father. Don't forget, God is invisible.
don't forget Jesus is a physical man.

so taking Jesus words literally the Father is a physical man.

case closed, you are wrong and we are right.

next fallacy

hope this helps !!!
 
You are defining the context and meaning of words based around a subjective theology when the only common denominator is that since God is invisible then no one, not even Jesus, has physically seen Him. You are also conflating physical with spiritual sight. No one has actually seen the invisible God.
projecting again I see.

If Jesus meant it literally since He is a man, then the Father must be a man too.

we are correct and you are in error.

hope this helps !!!
 
don't forget Jesus is a physical man.

so taking Jesus words literally the Father is a physical man.

case closed, you are wrong and we are right.

next fallacy

hope this helps !!!
Then you have not demonstrated anything that makes Jesus different from the apostles in their seeing the Father. Case closed.
 
projecting again I see.

If Jesus meant it literally since He is a man, then the Father must be a man too.

we are correct and you are in error.

hope this helps !!!
You're making the claim that Jesus saw God and the apostles didn't here. I say that they all know God. Seeing = knowing.

See why John 1:18 says what it does now?

John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
 
Quite simply typically the term God was used as a proper name to denote the Father while lord was reserved for Jesus

but the bible calls Christ/the word God (adjectivally as deity- a class of being) here

John 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus' name isn't in John 1:1. You're providing an interpretation.

John 20:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Thomas made a declaration and didn't address Jesus.

Titus 2:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
The Greek uses the "the" definite article before Great God, pointing out distinction between God and Jesus.

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 2020) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
The context shows that God and Jesus aren't the same person.

But here the justice is not that of God the Father but “of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” One definite article in the Greek (τοῦ, tou) governs both “God” and “Savior,” which are connected with καί (kai, and). The identical grammatical construction appears elsewhere in the epistle where Jesus Christ is called both “Lord and Savior” (2Pe 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 18). In a case such as this, “the article is (naturally) omitted with the second of two phrases in apposition connected by καί [kai]”

regarding Titus 2:13

THIS INTERPRETATION HAS THE SUPPORT OF A.T. ROBINSON, P.W. SCHMIEDEL, MOULTON, BLASS DEBRUNNER, DANA AND MANTEY, BRUCE METZGER, REYMOND ETC

All expert Greek scholars

If you want to address sharps rule do so by finding an exception to it

Where two nouns are separate by "and" (Kia - greek) and the article appears only before the first noun
What you're doing here is using isolated examples and semantical arguments that are contradicted by the Biblical narrative and dozens of other examples. Your interpretation holds contradictions with many verses that plainly show God and Jesus aren't the same person.

Try reading the first few verses of all of the letters. All of them identify God and Jesus as distinct from one another.
 
Back
Top Bottom