civic
Well-known member
Nothing is different since both the Father and Son are God.
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The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
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civic
Well-known member
another major flaw and fallacy.
Since both the Father/Son are God to see Jesus is seeing God.
next...........
no matter how you try and slice and dice it you fail.
hope this helps !!!
charismaticlady
Active member
I can see how you could think that from those verses. But tell me what you believe Jesus emptied Himself of so He could suffer death in this passage?
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
A blind man can see that it is the word who became flesh and was known as Jesus Christ
John 1:1–34 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. 6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites to him from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny; and this is what he confessed: “I am not the Christ.” 21 And so they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you? Tell us, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am THE VOICE OF ONE CALLING OUT IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE THE WAY OF THE LORD STRAIGHT,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 And the messengers had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 It is He who comes after me, of whom I am not worthy even to untie the strap of His sandal.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing people. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He in behalf of whom I said, ‘After me is coming a Man who has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ 31 And I did not recognize Him, but so that He would be revealed to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 And John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”
The word the only son from the father was identified by John as Jesus
So right off the bat we see scripture falsifies your theology
More denying of scripture
John 20:28–29 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Sorry but when two nouns are separated by and (kai0 and the article appears on before the first noun then one person is spoken of
Granville sharps rule
Agreed because that is modalist and not trinitarian doctrine
You continually conflate themrat
Again you fail to distinguish the noun Theos being used as a proper name and Theos used to denote deity
civic
Well-known member
an argument from silence from you.
The Father never said. " I alone Am God "
so much for your claims and fallacious arguments once again.
next
Runningman
Well-known member
You seem to think you know everything. I don't believe anyone can help you.
Runningman
Well-known member
You're describing Tom's post which employs the argument from silence. One of his statements was about John 1:1 meaning Jesus is the Word, but it's silent on mentioning Jesus' name. You're getting desperate and careless... the ad homs from you aren't even making sense anymore.
Runningman
Well-known member
You're imagining an incarnation and it's a foundational error. We need to take some steps back to address this, many steps back. It'll require you agreeing with some basic truths first. Step 1, do you agree that the word incarnation is not in the Bible?
civic
Well-known member
I know who God is and who God is not, that's for sure.
civic
Well-known member
He is the Word- the Word became flesh ( the Word pre existed His birth as a man ) - His name is Jesus.
Runningman
Well-known member
Paul equates emptying himself to Jesus humbling himself in verses 7-8. Rather than Jesus doing his own will, he obeyed God, saying "Not my will, but your will be done..." before submitting to the cross. The life Jesus chose in obedience to God was of his own will. He made deliberate, conscious, choices to trust and obey God and it requires humility. Jesus was popular in his day, very popular. He could have been a king, perhaps, and that comes with a lot of money and power, but that isn't what Jesus wanted to do.
Rather than choosing a life that glorified himself, he chose a life that glorified God. It takes humility to take a life of scorn and rejection that culminates in a painful death on a cross, but Jesus did it because God wanted that for the greater good.
Runningman
Well-known member
I keep asking you people to post the Scripture where Jesus is described as the Word and no one has done it yet.
civic
Well-known member
Duh from the context. Your problem like all who deny Christ is you isolate a verse and remove it from the context which reveals the meaning of words/phrases.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses;grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
The context reveals the following biblical facts
1- the Word was God ( John 1:1 )
2- the Word who was God became flesh ( a man ) John 1:14
3- He is the One and Only Son
4- He existed before John who was 6 months older
5- He is identified as Jesus Christ in 1:17
conclusion: The Word is Jesus Christ who is God.
John 1:1,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…
1 John 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Revelation 19:13
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
hope this helps !!!
charismaticlady
Active member
That's not enough. Do you believe Jesus existed before He became a baby in Mary's womb?
Runningman
Well-known member
This doesn't say the Word is Jesus. It says the Word became flesh.
This passage refers to the Word as a thing.
Fake verse.
This isn't Jesus, but rather the Father.
Runningman
Well-known member
Not anymore than he was literally slain before the world was created. Just existed in God's plan, foreknowledge, and pre-destination.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Thanks for your answer, Runningman
You love my approach. Then you find it unreasonable.
I see your point.
Being a Baha’i means acting under the conviction that we are all members of the same family. I can’t help it.
Now, you brought a very important point here, which is what our Trinitarian brothers think about the importance of believing in such doctrine for the destiny of our souls after death. That would be the topic of another thread.
You ran from the text
A blind man can see that it is the word who became flesh and was known as Jesus Christ
John 1:1–34 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. 6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites to him from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny; and this is what he confessed: “I am not the Christ.” 21 And so they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you? Tell us, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am THE VOICE OF ONE CALLING OUT IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE THE WAY OF THE LORD STRAIGHT,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 And the messengers had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 It is He who comes after me, of whom I am not worthy even to untie the strap of His sandal.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing people. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He in behalf of whom I said, ‘After me is coming a Man who has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ 31 And I did not recognize Him, but so that He would be revealed to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 And John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”
The word became flesh and was the son of the Father
John identified Jesus as this son
Thus your doctrine is refuted
More denying of scripture
John 20:28–29 (NASB 2020) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you now believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Sorry but when two nouns are separated by and (kai0 and the article appears on before the first noun then one person is spoken of
Granville sharps rule
Agreed because that is modalist and not trinitarian doctrine
You continually conflate them
Again you fail to distinguish the noun Theos being used as a proper name and Theos used to denote deity
Sorry that is false and you are in denial
John 1:1–34 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. 6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites to him from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny; and this is what he confessed: “I am not the Christ.” 21 And so they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you? Tell us, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am THE VOICE OF ONE CALLING OUT IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE THE WAY OF THE LORD STRAIGHT,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 And the messengers had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 It is He who comes after me, of whom I am not worthy even to untie the strap of His sandal.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing people. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He in behalf of whom I said, ‘After me is coming a Man who has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’ 31 And I did not recognize Him, but so that He would be revealed to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 And John testified, saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”
The word became flesh and was the son of the Father
John identified Jesus as this son
hello
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Very, very typically.
So typically, that whenever the terms "Father" and "Jesus Christ" are mentioned in the same sentence, and the author wants to give the title "God" to one of them, in 100% of the verses (not 95.5% this time, but 100%) the title goes to The Father.
Beyond the fact that this happens 100% of the times, the question I encourage you to reflect on is... why?
Why did the authors of the New Testament prefer "Theos" for The Father if they wanted to teach the deity of Jesus?
Why didn't they give the title "Theos" to both the Father and the Son every time they had a chance to put these two personal beings together? Or, if not every time, at least 50%? At least 33%? At least 10%?
In fact, in the verse in which Paul explicitly teaches who Christians worship as God, and who they follow as Master (Lord)... the verse that would end any debate about the use of "God" and "Lord"... why does Paul insist in separating the status of God and Lord, assigning the status of God only to the Father?
"yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him." (1 Cor 8:6)
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