I want to see the verses that explicitly say that Jesus is not God. No Judaizing Conjectures please. Please list them.
The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
It's not
There is Ton Theon and Ho Logos
Two persons
God (Theon) without the article function as an adjective
denoting a quality of deity
The two persons are of the same class of being (deity)
More specifically:
καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος
Θεὸς "without the article functions as an adjective, denoting a quality of Divinity" as you wrote.
ὁ Λόγος is the Word, a Person as described in Rev 19:11-16.
So only 1 Person is mentioned in the phrase "the Word was God". Unitarianism fails miserably here.
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Let's review these three verses, 2 Pet 1:1, Titus 2:13 and Rom 9:5, where Christ is explicitly called God
They correspond to a vast number of instances where God and Christ are put next to each other. In all those instances, except these 3, Christ is not given the title God. The title God is given to another person who is not Christ. In some instances, the identity of such person called "God" is revealed: can you guess who is He?
Let's start with 2 Peter 1:1, because it is already late my brothers... I need to take my dog for a walk
How does the author(s) of the epistles of Peter treat God and Jesus when sitting next to each other in the same sentence? Lets see:
This means: "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Savior Jesus Christ. Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord."
If you want to sustain 1 Peter 1:1 as it is, then you must rule out the other 6 instances, because in all of them God is not Jesus.
They correspond to a vast number of instances where God and Christ are put next to each other. In all those instances, except these 3, Christ is not given the title God. The title God is given to another person who is not Christ. In some instances, the identity of such person called "God" is revealed: can you guess who is He?
Let's start with 2 Peter 1:1, because it is already late my brothers... I need to take my dog for a walk
How does the author(s) of the epistles of Peter treat God and Jesus when sitting next to each other in the same sentence? Lets see:
- 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has given us a new birth
- 1 Peter 2:5 You also, as living stones, are being built up into a spiritual house as a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ
- 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God,
- 1 Peter 4:11 If anyone serves, let him serve with the strength that God supplies, so that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ
- 1 Peter 5:10 the God of all grace, who has called us to His eternal glory through Christ Jesus, will restore, support, strengthen, and establish you
- 2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
- In three of them (1 P 2:5m 1 P 4:11 and 1 P 5:10) Jesus is presented as a vehicle or instrument of God ("through Jesus Christ")
- In one of them, Jesus is presented as a person who bring us to God. (1 P 4:11)
- In one of them (1 P 1:3), God is identified explicitly as the Father of Jesus and God of Jesus.
This means: "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith as precious as ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Savior Jesus Christ. Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord."
If you want to sustain 1 Peter 1:1 as it is, then you must rule out the other 6 instances, because in all of them God is not Jesus.
Which proves the Lord Jesus (God) is the Creator.
The Creator = God
Romans 1:25
the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Romans 9:5
who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Romans 1:25
ton ktisanta hos estin eulogētos eis tous aiōnas amēn
Romans 9:5
ho ōn epi pantōn theos eulogētos eis tous aiōnas amēn
Not only that it also proves the Lord Jesus (God) is "over all" in equality with the Father (God).
Romans 9:5
who is over all, God
Ephesians 4:6
God and Father of all who is over all
Romans 9:5
ho ōn epi pantōn theos
Ephesians 4:6
theos kai patēr pantōn ho epi pantōn
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Do we need a list of verses that explicitly say that Peter is not God in order to accept that Peter is not God?
For any verse that I give you that points out to who is God, you could argue: "Well, Pancho, that verse does not say that Peter is not God."
How would you use the Bible to prove that you are not God?
Do you see the problem of your question?
I can give you a large list of verses that say who is God. Anyone else not identified as God is not God, by definition.
Moreover, if the person being mentioned next to God is not identified as God, you can by definition rule that person out.
Judaizing conjectures deal with circumcision, festivities, meals and sacrifices. The Law of Moses.
I beg you to give us one single verse that shows that Judaizing people were concerned about the Trinity.
Otherwise, please retract your "Judaizing conjectures" from the discussion.
Every time the great God is used in the Bible it always refers to the Almighty. (Ezra 5:8; Nehemiah 8:6; Psalm 95:3; Daniel 2:45)
That Paul would apply this in reference to Jesus is obvious that he believed Jesus is the Almighty. (Titus 2:13)
civic
Well-known member
Just because scripture declares He is a man noes not mean He is also not God as you assert. That is what is known as a false dichotomy fallacy. Scripture declares He is both regardless of the percentage of the claims to His humanity vs His Deity. One does not nullify the other. You are smart enough to realize this I'm sure.
No, because all of them are true.
101G
Well-known member
well let's see if what you say is true. let the bible tell us, in Revelation chapter 4 & 5 one sits on the throne..... many say this is the Father, (your Ton Theon). and there is one who stand before the throne... in chapter 5, your (Ho Logos), the Son as many say.
now TomL, if you agree with that assessment that your (Ton Theon) sits on the throne, "the Father", one question, "if (your Ton Theon) sits on the throne, WHO GAVE YOUR TON THEON POWER, see Revelation 4:11.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
Not ignoring nothing, because the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are titles of one person, that's why.
see above, and as for, "Jesus our Advocate with the Father: 1 John 2:1" as 101G been saying, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." with? listen, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." just as "with" in John 1:1 and 1 John 2:1...... (smile), oh too easy.
101G
101G
Well-known member
What a disgusting assertion.
Sorry but the rest of the verses show they are not
Except with indicates another
Hello
And with the last. The usual form in which this is expressed is simply ‘the last’ (ch. 44:6; 48:12). The idea here seems to be, ‘and with the last, I am the same;’ i.e., I am unchanging and eternal. None will subsist after me; since with the last of all created objects I shall be the same that I was in the beginning. Nothing would survive God; or in other words, he would exist for ever and ever. The argument here is, that to this unchanging and eternal God, who had thus raised up and directed Cyrus, and who had control over all nations, they might commit themselves with unwavering confidence, and be assured that he was able to protect and deliver them.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Isaiah (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1851), 83.
The verse is not pointing to an identity of YHWH but noting he is there even with the last
101G
Well-known member
the Almighty is JESUS THE LORD, and the proofing scripture, 1 Timothy 6:14 "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" 1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
if he is the "ONLY" one who have immortality then there are no second or third person. for "ONLY" mean, "and no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively:. CHECKMATE
101G
Who is God but not the father
Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Know anyone in heaven who bear a father to son relationship with Jesus
So easy for you to be wrong
101G
Well-known member
what rest?
yes another of the SAME SORT......... READ. remember in English, "another" also in Greek is G2087 ἕτερος heteros (he'-te-ros) which is notG243 ἄλλος allos (al'-los) .... (smile) ... uh o.....
go to bible hub and look up on the verse Isaiah 41:4 "the Last" and see what Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions says....... (smile). and see what Isaiah 48:12 states... oh too easy.
see what Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions says about the Last
101G
You are on the wrong verse
The verse in question is John 1:1
ton theon is not ho logos but he is with him
That is two
But consider
One praying to another - that is two
One sending another - that is two
One loving another - that is two
One obeying another that is two
One with another that is two
One the father another the son - that is two
101G
Well-known member
101G
Well-known member
ERROR is not the First WITH the Last? .... who is one person. God is not changing.
so is it the Father who sits on the throne in Rev. chapter 4 and 5 yes or no.
101G.
