The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

Runningman said:
Whoa slow down now. Who ever said the Word was pre-incarnate? Verse? Any examples from the OT where the pre-incarnate Word was saying or doing anything?
Click to expand...
How about these in the New Testament

John 1:1–14 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:3–8 (KJV 1900) — 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

both clearly display a preincarnate being who became flesh
 
TomL said:
How about these in the New Testament

John 1:1–14 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2:3–8 (KJV 1900) — 3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. 4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

both clearly display a preincarnate being who became flesh
Click to expand...
You are correct but Runningman wanted examples from the OT.

These are examples from the OT:
  • 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
  • 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"
Unitarians certainly love their rabbit holes. They get nailed and then they ask "what about this?" or "what about that?". They're a silly bunch.
 
Runningman said:
Not much to comment on due to sheer lack of supporting verses. One may argue to the contrary, but there are no explicit examples where someone taught to pray to Jesus in the Bible. There are no examples of the word "pray" or "prayer" being used in conjunction with communicating to Jesus.

The Bible teaches to pray to God the Father. That's it.

Matthew 6​
6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.​
​
9So then, this is how you should pray:​
‘Our Father in heaven,​
hallowed be Your name.​
Click to expand...
Here's a novel idea.....

Don't pray to Jesus.
Pray to the Father in Jesus name and you'll have resolved the perceived problem.

Just remember....

We are engaged to be married to Jesus.

Eph 5:32 WEB This mystery is great, but I speak concerning Christ and the assembly.


At some point, it strikes me that if we're told be married to him, we're going to want to be talking to and with him.
 
TomL said:
Your comment is incorrect

Trinitarians hold the father and son are not the same person but the same being
Click to expand...
You're absolutely right. My apologies to you and to the readers.
I am changing my post correspondingly. The argument remains the same. Here it goes:

Both Unitarians and Trinitarians accept that Jesus and the Father are not the same person.
So, verses that present Jesus and His Father as different persons are accepted by both sides naturally.
So far, so good.

Now, the problem is about the verses (which are numerous, more than 100) that present Jesus and God as different persons.
If Jesus and God were the same person, it would make no sense for any inspired author to present "God" as as person on one side and "Jesus" as a person on another side.
Do you understand me now? Please bear with me in this example:

Let's suppose that you claim that both James Quincey and his son are equally CEO of Coca-Cola while I claim that only James Quincey is the CEO. We debate often on that. One day we find in the official website of Coca-Cola about 150 statements like this:

"In the opening ceremony of our annual conference, our CEO asked his son to come to stage to share some thoughts with the audience". ​
"The CEO of our company loves to play golf with his son". ​
"Our CEO and his son wish all employees a Merry Christmas". ​
"Coca-Cola's CEO sent his son to negotiate with the Swiss investors"​

After reading statements like this, would you still think that both James Quincey and his son are the CEO?
Furthermore, what would you think if you found a statement like the one below?

"Our CEO James Quincey and his beloved and only son, visited today the facilities in Stuttgart, Germany"​

Well, this is exactly what happens in the Bible. More than 150 times, when God and Jesus are presented in the same verse, sentence or passage, they are presented as two different persons. Not as an "divine atribute" and a person. Not as a "council" and a person, but as two persons.
Why would the inspired authors do this, if they wanted to teach that Jesus is God?
The answer, my friend, is that they always believed that God is not Jesus, but specifically, the Father of Jesus.
 
synergy said:
We've already covered the fact that the word "God" denotes either Person or Nature based on context.
Click to expand...
Please provide an example of a single verse in which the word "God" denotes a "nature" in any of the following contexts:

God loves
God forgives
God saves
God commands

or in any of these

A man loves God
A man asks Gods for forgiveness
A man trusts God
A man worships God


synergy said:
We're not going to ditch the Bible on account of Unitarians' inability to understand simple concepts.
Click to expand...
Are you implying that the Trinity or the nature of Christ are simple concepts? :)
.
Unitarians are not intellectually or spiritually impaired. At least, no more than any other human being. Do you agree with me on this?
 
synergy said:
You are correct but Runningman wanted examples from the OT.

These are examples from the OT:
  • 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
  • 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"
Unitarians certainly love their rabbit holes. They get nailed and then they ask "what about this?" or "what about that?". They're a silly bunch.
Click to expand...
Yeah well that is framing, so I pointed out his ignoring of New Testament scripture
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
You're absolutely right. My apologies to you and to the readers.
I am changing my post correspondingly. The argument remains the same. Here it goes:

Both Unitarians and Trinitarians accept that Jesus and the Father are not the same person.
So, verses that present Jesus and His Father as different persons are accepted by both sides naturally.
So far, so good.

Now, the problem is about the verses (which are numerous, more than 100) that present Jesus and God as different persons.
If Jesus and God were the same person, it would make no sense for any inspired author to present "God" as as person on one side and "Jesus" as a person on another side.
Do you understand me now? Please bear with me in this example:

Let's suppose that you claim that both James Quincey and his son are equally CEO of Coca-Cola while I claim that only James Quincey is the CEO. We debate often on that. One day we find in the official website of Coca-Cola about 150 statements like this:

"In the opening ceremony of our annual conference, our CEO asked his son to come to stage to share some thoughts with the audience". ​
"The CEO of our company loves to play golf with his son". ​
"Our CEO and his son wish all employees a Merry Christmas". ​
"Coca-Cola's CEO sent his son to negotiate with the Swiss investors"​

After reading statements like this, would you still think that both James Quincey and his son are the CEO?
Furthermore, what would you think if you found a statement like the one below?

"Our CEO James Quincey and his beloved and only son, visited today the facilities in Stuttgart, Germany"​

Well, this is exactly what happens in the Bible. More than 150 times, when God and Jesus are presented in the same verse, sentence or passage, they are presented as two different persons. Not as an "divine atribute" and a person. Not as a "council" and a person, but as two persons.
Why would the inspired authors do this, if they wanted to teach that Jesus is God?
The answer, my friend, is that they always believed that God is not Jesus, but specifically, the Father of Jesus.
Click to expand...
But Jesus is called God multiple times. The Bible is not a democracy where the 150 verses win over these 9 verses:

(2 Pet 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

(Titus 2:13) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(John 8:58) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!

(Rev 1:8) I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(1 Tim 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

(Matt 1:23) "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.

(John 20:28-29) And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed.
Pancho Frijoles said:
Please provide an example of a single verse in which the word "God" denotes a "nature" in any of the following contexts:

God loves
God forgives
God saves
God commands

or in any of these

A man loves God
A man asks Gods for forgiveness
A man trusts God
A man worships God
Click to expand...
Everything is perfectly Trinitarian except for "A man asks Gods for forgiveness". That's polytheism.
Pancho Frijoles said:
Are you saying that the Trinity or the nature of Christ are simple concepts? :)
.
Unitarians are not intellectually or spiritually impaired. At least, no more than any other human being. Do you agree with me on this?
Click to expand...
I'm just saying that we will not give up on the Bible just because Unitarians cannot or will not accept the multiple Bible verses that explicitly say that Jesus is God:

(2 Pet 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

(Titus 2:13) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(John 8:58) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!

(Rev 1:8) I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(1 Tim 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

(Matt 1:23) "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.

(John 20:28-29) And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed.
 
TomL said:
No I believe he is three persons
Click to expand...

You can't use "He" thinking in three persons. That's a logical contradiction. "He" is singular.
If you want to be consistent with such concept of God, then you should say "They are three persons".

The Bible calls God "He" and says explicitly that He is One. Jesus calls God "He" as well... and introduced the Most Important of all Commandments highlighting that He is One.

So, the Bible treats God as a Person. Jesus treated God as a Person.

We respect and love our pantheists and polytheists brothers, but as monotheists, we believe that God is a Person. A "He".
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
You can't use "He" thinking in three persons. That's a logical contradiction. "He" is singular.
If you want to be consistent with such concept of God, then you should say "They are three persons".

The Bible calls God "He" and says explicitly that He is One. Jesus calls God "He" as well... and introduced the Most Important of all Commandments highlighting that He is One.

So, the Bible treats God as a Person. Jesus treated God as a Person.

We respect and love our pantheists and polytheists brothers, but as monotheists, we believe that God is a Person. A "He".
Click to expand...
How does John 1:1 treat God in the phrase "the Word was God"?
 
Runningman said:
Not much to comment on due to sheer lack of supporting verses. One may argue to the contrary, but there are no explicit examples where someone taught to pray to Jesus in the Bible. There are no examples of the word "pray" or "prayer" being used in conjunction with communicating to Jesus.

The Bible teaches to pray to God the Father. That's it.

Matthew 6​
6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.​
​
9So then, this is how you should pray:​
‘Our Father in heaven,​
hallowed be Your name.​
Click to expand...
How about saying "Dear God"?
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
You can't use "He" thinking in three persons. That's a logical contradiction. "He" is singular.
If you want to be consistent with such concept of God, then you should say "They are three persons".

The Bible calls God "He" and says explicitly that He is One. Jesus calls God "He" as well... and introduced the Most Important of all Commandments highlighting that He is One.

So, the Bible treats God as a Person. Jesus treated God as a Person.

We respect and love our pantheists and polytheists brothers, but as monotheists, we believe that God is a Person. A "He".
Click to expand...
1 Thes. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is a triune being. And just as we are not three persons, God is One, but three parts. (Our nature when reborn was our spirit and soul, otherwise known as our mind and feelings.) Those are also where sin resides, not our body which is like a puppet, and doesn't do anything until the mind directs it.
 
synergy said:
But Jesus is called God multiple times.
Click to expand...
For every time he is called God, I can give you 30 where He is not, even when the author had a golden chance to do it.
synergy said:
The Bible is not a democracy where the 150 verses win over these 9 verses:
Click to expand...
I disagree.
90 verses do win over 3 verses... particularly when God is explicitly referred as One Person over, and over, and over.
Particularly when Jesus Himself pronounces some of such verses.
Particularly when, having the opportunity to assign the title God to both The Father and Jesus, the apostles keep giving the title to only one of them.

So, when extracting theology from the Bible, who pronounces the verses, in which context, and how frequently, is all important.


synergy said:
(2 Pet 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

(Titus 2:13) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(John 8:58) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!

(Rev 1:8) I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(1 Tim 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

(Matt 1:23) "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.

(John 20:28-29) And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed.

Everything is perfectly Trinitarian except for "A man asks Gods for forgiveness". That's polytheism.

I'm just saying that we will not give up on the Bible just because Unitarians cannot or will not accept the multiple Bible verses that explicitly say that Jesus is God:

(2 Pet 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

(Titus 2:13) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

(John 8:58) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM!

(Rev 1:8) I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

(John 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

(1 Tim 3:16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

(Matt 1:23) "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.

(John 20:28-29) And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed.
Click to expand...

These are many verses... but only 3 or 4 of them calling Jesus God. But if you took all this effort, it implies that you do care about numbers. Am I right?
Would you like me to list the verses in which the title God is given to the other person next to Jesus, and not to him?
What if my list exceeds your list in a proportion of 30:1? What if the proportion is 70:1?
 
charismaticlady said:
1 Thes. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is a triune being. And just as we are not three persons, God is One, but three parts. (Our nature when reborn was our spirit and soul, otherwise known as our mind and feelings.) Those are also where sin resides, not our body which is like a puppet, and doesn't do anything until the mind directs it.
Click to expand...

My sister

You are one person.
God is one person.
That's why you can have with God a personal relationship. This means, from person to person.
 
Fred said:
Which ones?
Click to expand...

These ones:

synergy said:
(2 Pet 1:1) Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ

(Titus 2:13) waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

(Rom 9:5) To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Click to expand...
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
As a person.
How does John 1:1 treat "Word" in the phrase "the Word was God"?
Click to expand...
Permit me to introduce you to the Word of God Person. That is verifiable by the fact that He can ride a horse, has eyes, has a head, wears a crown, wears a garment, etc...

Rev 19:11 And I saw Heaven opened. And behold, a white horse! And He sitting on him was called Faithful and True. And in righteousness He judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 And His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head many crowns. And He had a name written, one that no one knew except Himself.
Rev 19:13 And He had been clothed in a garment dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And He has on His garment, and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

So, how is it possible for 2 distinct Persons to be the same Person in the phrase "the Word was God"????
 

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