The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[synergy]

The passage I am giving you does not say "Father".
Why do you think that the expression "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" of Acts 3:13 refers to the Father?

I understand why I think in those terms, but I don't get why you think in those terms.
As a Unitarian, when I read "God" I think in the Father.
But as a Trinitarian, you should be thinking "The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit". Why don't you do it, then?

****

Dear readers

As you can perceive, Fred, as many of our Trinitarian brothers, are intellectually (not spiritually) trapped in the closet.
When a Trinitarian reads “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son " in John 3:16, he visualizes "The Father" when he reads "God". But the text does not say "The Father", but "God".
Why doesn't he think in John 3:16 this way: "For The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit so loved the world that They gave Their only begotten Son..."
Why don't they preach that Jesus was sent by a Council in which He was also sitting? Why don't they preach that Jesus is the Son of a Council?

Certainly, the truth is that John 3:16 treas God and Jesus as two different beings. One being sending another being.

We've already covered the fact that the word "God" denotes either Person or Nature based on context. We're not going to ditch the Bible on account of Unitarians' inability to understand simple concepts.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Sorry to enter this discussion so late but don't you sing hymns to God as part of your church's worship service?

Yes, Baha'i also sing hymns to God.
And we sing hymns to Baha'u'llah, despite not considering him God, and to his son Abdul Bahá, despite not considering him God.
Mormons have at least one hymn to Joseph Smith, despite not considering him God.
I also sign hymns to Mexico, expressing my love to my country and my willingness to lay my life defending it... and certainly, I do not consider Mexico my God.

When my father died, I kneeled down before his dead corpse in the funeral service and talked to him in my mind thanking him for his love.
Do I consider my father God? No.

So, the non-sequitur of Fred is to think that because there are some mentioning in the Bible of people praying to Jesus (which accounts for, perhaps, less than 10% of all instances in which people pray) Jesus must be God.

The flag symbolizes our union, land, and its founding fathers, not God. So there's no worship there.

I agree. By the same token, Jesus represents our intercessor before God, but not God. So there's no worship there.
Let me repeat the text in Colossians. Please look how Paul refers to Jesus as the means, but not the final recipient of our prayers of gratitude.

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

 

[synergy]

The problem is not with the passages, but with the way you link premises with conclusions.
Following your logics, some could also "prove", supported by passages, that it is OK to

• stone homosexuals
• keep slavery
• declare biological evolution heresy
• avoid all blood transfusions

and much more.

You are confusing us with Muslims. The Bible has recorded abrogations but only under the auspices of Jesus and the Holy Spirit (Jerusalem Council, for example).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

We've already covered the fact that the word "God" denotes either Person or Nature based on context. We're not going to ditch the Bible on account of Unitarians' inability to understand simple concepts.

Thank you for the comment, synergy.
Based on the context in which the Shema Israel was originally written and then repeated by Jesus, what does "God" mean in the sentence "Listen, Israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is One"? A Person or a Nature?

When John 3:16 says that God loved the world so much, what does "God" mean in that context? A Person or a Nature?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are confusing us with Muslims. The Bible has recorded abrogations but only under the auspices of Jesus and the Holy Spirit (Jerusalem Council, for example).

When was slavery abrogated in the Bible? When the narrative of six days of creation was declared mythical or metaphorical in the Bible?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

evasion

I am addressing your post directly. The passages are true. The logic of YOUR argumentation is deficient. It is called a non-sequitur, because you cannot derive the conclusion from the premise.

Now, please tell me why are you so sure that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of Acts 3:13 is The Father?

 

[Fred]

I am addressing your post directly.

You are not.

The passages are true. The logic of YOUR argumentation is deficient. It is called a non-sequitur, because you cannot derive the conclusion from the premise.

Zero proof.

Now, please tell me why are you so sure that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob of Acts 3:13 is The Father?

Paul prayed to Jesus which proves Jesus is God.

 

[Administrator]

I am not dodging prayers to Jesus.
I see with good eyes that anyone pray to Jesus in some instances, as long as Jesus is considered a vehicle or intercessor before God, as the Bible teaches.
What Peter and Paul have refuted is your non-sequitur that, since it is OK to pray to Jesus in some circumstances, Jesus is God.

***

You can make one thousand accusations to your brothers of "dodging" and "hiding", while considering with sincerity that you are addressing arguments that you, actually, are not.
A moderator could be very useful in this kind of debates, so that nobody could be accused of that.
Is there any rule in the Forum that forbids to look for a moderator? I would like to have the opinion of the @Administrator

You can do that here:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/forums/one-on-one-debates.49/

You can get someone to be the moderator.

 

[Runningman]

You continue to have a serious English Comprehension problems, this time with Subject/Object Comprehension.

In John 1:14, the Word (Jesus) is the object and became flesh.
In Matt 8:26, Jesus and his words are the subject (the causal agent), not the object. Water is the object and became calm.

My my. What a dirt poor understanding of subject/object concepts you possess. You continue to embarrass yourself.

You're attempting to describe an incarnation which is unsupported by the context, grammar, and Biblical narrative. Your point was refuted when Jesus calmed the sea by speaking.

I also might add, according to 1 John 1:1-2, the Word is not a person, but a thing that was manifested or revealed by Jesus. So the best workaround for John 1:1 is the Word is being personified.

 

[synergy]

When was slavery abrogated in the Bible?

The Holy Spirit is definitely at work within the Christian Church and within the hearts of Christians. That's why slavery was eliminated by Christians and not by Muslims. If we had to wait for Muslims, slavery would still exist. Your beef is with Muslims. That's naturally true because your religion was born within a sea of Muslims.

When the narrative of six days of creation was declared mythical or metaphorical in the Bible?

There are many metaphorical statements mentioned in the Bible. The Book of Revelations is chock full of them. Apocalyptic literature is chock full of metaphoric statements.

 

[Runningman]

I am not dodging prayers to Jesus.
I see with good eyes that anyone pray to Jesus in some instances, as long as Jesus is considered a vehicle or intercessor before God, as the Bible teaches.
What Peter and Paul have refuted is your non-sequitur that, since it is OK to pray to Jesus in some circumstances, Jesus is God.

***

You can make one thousand accusations to your brothers of "dodging" and "hiding", while considering with sincerity that you are addressing arguments that you, actually, are not.
A moderator could be very useful in this kind of debates, so that nobody could be accused of that.
Is there any rule in the Forum that forbids to look for a moderator? I would like to have the opinion of the @Administrator

Accusations on forums have become so common I think everyone is desensitized to them. They are not constructive and most people seem to just barely, if at all, notice them anymore. Better to just stick to the issues.

 

[Runningman]

The Holy Spirit is definitely at work within the Christian Church and within the hearts of Christians. That's why slavery was eliminated by Christians and not by Muslims. If we had to wait for Muslims, slavery would still exist. Your beef is with Muslims. That's naturally true because your religion was born within a sea of Muslims.

There are many metaphorical statements mentioned in the Bible. The Book of Revelations is chock full of them. Apocalyptic literature is chock full of metaphoric statements.

The reads like you're conflating Trinitarianism with Christianity. Are you saying that true Christians are responsible for some of the most heinous crimes against humanity, including crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, etc? Better to keep distance between your religion and the Christians because it gives the wrong idea.

 

[synergy]

You're attempting to describe an incarnation which is unsupported by the context, grammar, and Biblical narrative. Your point was refuted when Jesus calmed the sea by speaking.

Huh? This is coming from someone who has English and Basic Logic Comprehension problems.

I also might add, according to 1 John 1:1-2, the Word is not a person, but a thing that was manifested or revealed by Jesus. So the best workaround for John 1:1 is the Word is being personified.

In the Koine Greek NT, λογος/λογω is for the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ, ρημα/ρηματι is for the spoken word, and λογον is for the written/recorded/memorized/spoken word.

John 1:14 mentions λογος who is the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ. The Word of God is clearly described as a Person in Rev 19:11-16, which Unitarians always conveniently skip over.

If one is not careful with Koine Greek then he ends up making a total mess of things as evidenced by the mess that Unitarians are resposible for.

 

[synergy]

The reads like you're conflating Trinitarianism with Christianity. Are you saying that true Christians are responsible for some of the most heinous crimes against humanity, including crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, etc? Better to keep distance between your religion and the Christians because it gives the wrong idea.

I was talking about the Holy Spirit's work within the Christian Church, such as the abolition of slavery. I'm sure you do not associate heinous crimes with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Runningman]

Huh? This is coming from someone who has English and Basic Logic Comprehension problems.

In the Koine Greek NT, λογος/λογω is for the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ, ρημα/ρηματι is for the spoken word, and λογον is for the written/recorded/memorized/spoken word.

John 1:14 mentions λογος who is the Pre-Incarnate Word of God Person who took on flesh as Jesus Christ. The Word of God is clearly described as a Person in Rev 19:11-16, which Unitarians always conveniently skip over.

If one is not careful with Koine Greek then he ends up making a total mess of things as evidenced by the mess that Unitarians are resposible for.

Whoa slow down now. Who ever said the Word was pre-incarnate? Verse? Any examples from the OT where the pre-incarnate Word was saying or doing anything?

 

[TomL]

If Peter knew and accepted your argument, why did Peter keep considering the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as different from Jesus?

Why didn't Peter seize such a wonderful opportunity to tell the Israelites: "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our Fathers, has taken flesh and walked with us, died on the cross and raised again for his own power and will?"

If Paul knew and accepted your argument, why did Paul kept considering God as separate from Jesus Christ when he talked about praying? Why didn't Paul seize the opportunity to teach that Jesus was a proper recipient of his prayers, because Jesus is God?

We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you. (Col 1:3)

Furthermore, why does Paul ask us to thank the Father, who Paul calls "God", through Jesus? If Jesus is God, why Paul considers Jesus a vehicle of our prayers and not the final recipient of our prayers?

And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him. (Col 3:17)

Your argument is a non-sequitur and has been refuted by Paul himself through Colossians and other epistles.

Do you not understand Trinitarianism does not hold the father and the son are the same person

 

[synergy]

Thank you for the comment, synergy.
Based on the context in which the Shema Israel was originally written and then repeated by Jesus, what does "God" mean in the sentence "Listen, Israel, YHWH our God, YHWH is One"? A Person or a Nature?

(Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel, The Lord (κυριος) our God (θεὸς) is one Lord (κυριος).

Good question. This is a compound statement. "The Lord" is being addressed here with the qualifier "our God". So the Lord (Person, κυριος), who is God (by nature), who Jesus claimed to be (John 8:58, Ex 3:14), is one Lord (Person, κυριος).

When John 3:16 says that God loved the world so much, what does "God" mean in that context? A Person or a Nature?

(John 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Here the Son is mentioned so naturally "God" in this case is the Father, a Person. The Father gave us His Son for our salvation.

Here's a question for you. How do you understand the phrase "the Word was God" in John 1:1?

 

[synergy]

Whoa slow down now. Who ever said the Word was pre-incarnate? Verse? Any examples from the OT where the pre-incarnate Word was saying or doing anything?

If you would crack open an OT at least once in a while and you would have read statements like:

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,"

This proves that there were multiple Personal appearances of the Pre-Incarnate Word of God (Jesus) to OT Prophets. That clearly shows that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)

Rev 19:11-16 just picks up on that fact and drives it home.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Do you not understand Trinitarianism does not hold the father and the son are the same person

I do, TomL.

Both Unitarians and Trinitarians accept that Jesus and the Father are not the same Being.
So, verses that present Jesus and His Father as different Beings are accepted by both sides naturally.
So far, so good.

Now, the problem is about the verses (which are numerous, more than 100) that present Jesus and God as different beings.
If Jesus and God were the same Being, it would make no sense for any inspired author to present "God" on one side and "Jesus" on another side.
Do you understand me now? Please bear with me in this example:

Let's suppose that you claim that both James Quincey and his son are equally CEO of Coca-Cola while I claim that only James Quincey is the CEO. We debate often on that. One day we find in the official website of Coca-Cola about 150 statements like this:​

​

"In the opening ceremony of our annual conference, our CEO asked his son to come to stage to share some thoughts with the audience". ​

"The CEO of our company loves to play golf with his son". ​

"Our CEO and his son wish all employees a Merry Christmas". ​

"Coca-Cola's CEO sent his son to negotiate with the Swiss investors"​

​

After reading statements like this, would you still think that both James Quincey and his son are the CEO?​

Furthermore, what would you think if you found a statement like the one below?​

​

"Our CEO James Quincey and his beloved and only son, visited today the facilities in Stuttgart, Germany"​

Well, this is exactly what happens in the Bible. More than 150 times, when God and Jesus are presented in the same verse, sentence or passage, they are presented as two different beings. Why would the inspired authors do this, if they wanted to teach that Jesus and God are the same Being?
The answer, my friend, is that they always believed that God is not Jesus, but specifically, the Father of Jesus.

 

[TomL]

I do, TomL.

Both Unitarians and Trinitarians accept that Jesus and the Father are not the same Being.
So, verses that present Jesus and His Father as different Beings are accepted by both sides naturally.
So far, so good.

Your comment is incorrect

Trinitarians hold the father and son are not the same person but the same being