The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

That's in line with what I mentioned earlier. In fact, he was given glory which reinforces the fact that the Son of Man is God.

They are serving the Son of Man the same way Israelites served Jehovah God as recorded in Eze 20:40.

Again, the Son of Man is worshiped the same way as the Israelites worshiped Jehovah God, as recorded in Eze 20:40.

Nope. The people are given rule but they will worship (δουλευσουσιν) the one whose dominion shall never end: the Son of Man.

Conclusion: Since the Son of Man is worshipped (δουλευσουσιν) as Jehovah God is worshipped in Exe 20;40 and since the Son of Man is given glory as glory is only given to God, then Jesus is God.

So in the context the son of man isn't God. He's one of the people. One of the people isn't God or worshipped, hence why most versions avoid saying such things. Your obeying a theology, not Scripture, and it has blinded you. Let today be today Scripture and reason reigns.

Read this. regarding Daniel 7:27, taken from the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges commentary:

its kingdom is, &c., … shall serve and obey it] The pronouns, as the context shews, must refer to ‘people,’ not to ‘the Most High.’ In this verse, even more distinctly than in Daniel 7:18; Daniel 7:22, the universal and never-ending dominion, which in Daniel 7:14 is given to the ‘one like unto a son of man,’ seems to be conferred upon the people of the saints. For the same idea, adapted to a N.T. standpoint, cf. Revelation 5:10 b, Revelation 11:15, Revelation 12:10, Revelation 22:5; also Revelation 20:4; Revelation 20:6.

 

[Runningman]

False conclusion

All that can be concluded is the son of man is not the ancient of days

A lot more than that.

The verse says nothing which would deny the trinity doctrine which does not insist they are the same person

Your verse may be problematic for a modalist, but it is not for a trinitarian

Jesus being "a son of man" [sic] according to Daniel 7:13 doesn't deny the trinity? How about where the Bible says God is not a son of man?

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.
Does He speak and not act?
Does He promise and not fulfill?

 

[synergy]

'And whatsoever ye shall ask in My name,
that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.'
(Joh.14:13)

'If ye shall ask any thing in My name, I will do it.'
(Joh.14:14)

'Ye have not chosen Me,
but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name,
He may give it you.'
(Joh.15:16)

'And in that day ye shall ask Me nothing.
Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in My name,
He will give it you.'
(Joh.16:23)

Hitherto have ye asked nothing in My name:
ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.'
(Joh.16:24)

'At that day ye shall ask in My name:
and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
For the Father Himself loveth you,
because ye have loved Me,
and have believed that I came out from God.
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world:
again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. '
(Joh.16:26-28)

Hello there,

These words were spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ to His disciples. He says that they should 'ask' the Father, in His Name. To the Father for the Father loved them because they loved His only begotten Son, Who was now returning to the Father.

'That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.
He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him. '
(Joh 5:23)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

and when do we ask Jesus? In prayer! Not as Judaizing Heretics who think we just nonchalantly verbalize what we ask without any reverence or worship.

 

[civic]

and when do we ask Jesus? In prayer! Not as Judaizing Heretics who think we just nonchalantly verbalize what we ask without any reverence or worship.

there is no living/abiding relationship with the Son, its all academic for many.

 

[TomL]

A lot more than that.

Jesus being "a son of man" [sic] according to Daniel 7:13 doesn't deny the trinity? How about where the Bible says God is not a son of man?

Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that He should lie,
or a son of man, that He should change His mind.
Does He speak and not act?
Does He promise and not fulfill?

And it was true when written that God was not a man

but then

John 1:1–14 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. 6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Runningman]

And it was true when written that God was not a man

but then

John 1:1–14 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it. 6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Bible doesn't say God became a man despite your theological argument that He did. However, the Bible does directly say God is not a man and that doesn't require a theological argument to explain because it's in the plain text already. So while you are making an argument, I don't need to make an argument because the Bible already says what my premise is and it doesn't say what your premise is. I have the stronger argument against the deity of Jesus than you do for the deity of Jesus.

Numbers 23​

19God is not a man, that He should lie,​

or a son of man, that He should change His mind.​

Does He speak and not act?​

Does He promise and not fulfill?​

​

Hosea 11​

9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;​

I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim.​

For I am God and not man—​

the Holy One among you—​

and I will not come in wrath.​

Question. If God is a man then why does Paul contradict your point by saying that God is not served by human hands? Jesus has human hands.

Acts 17​

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.​

 

[synergy]

So in the context the son of man isn't God. He's one of the people. One of the people isn't God or worshipped, hence why most versions avoid saying such things. Your obeying a theology, not Scripture, and it has blinded you. Let today be today Scripture and reason reigns.

Huh? Someone is being given glory and being worshipped (δουλευσουσιν) and it ain't the people. It's the Son of Man (Jesus).

Your Judaizing Presuppositions are blinding you to what the verses clearly say.

Read this. regarding Daniel 7:27, taken from the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges commentary:

its kingdom is, &c., … shall serve and obey it] The pronouns, as the context shews, must refer to ‘people,’ not to ‘the Most High.’ In this verse, even more distinctly than in Daniel 7:18; Daniel 7:22, the universal and never-ending dominion, which in Daniel 7:14 is given to the ‘one like unto a son of man,’ seems to be conferred upon the people of the saints. For the same idea, adapted to a N.T. standpoint, cf. Revelation 5:10 b, Revelation 11:15, Revelation 12:10, Revelation 22:5; also Revelation 20:4; Revelation 20:6.

Huh? Where do you see "its kingdom" or "shall serve and obey it" in Dan 7:27???? I see "his kingdom" and "shall serve and obey him". Here is your quote of Dan 7:27:

Daniel 7
27And the kingdom and the dominion
and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven
shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom,
and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’

Conclusion: You're not only metaphorically visually challenged with your Judaizing presuppositions, you're also physically visually challenged. You are in need of new glasses, my friend.

 

[TomL]

The Bible doesn't say God became a man despite your theological argument that He did. However, the Bible does directly say God is not a man and that doesn't require a theological argument to explain because it's in the plain text already. So while you are making an argument, I don't need to make an argument because the Bible already says what my premise is and it doesn't say what your premise is. I have the stronger argument against the deity of Jesus than you do for the deity of Jesus.

Numbers 23​

19God is not a man, that He should lie,​

or a son of man, that He should change His mind.​

Does He speak and not act?​

Does He promise and not fulfill?​

​

Hosea 11​

9I will not execute the full fury of My anger;​

I will not turn back to destroy Ephraim.​

For I am God and not man—​

the Holy One among you—​

and I will not come in wrath.​

Question. If God is a man then why does Paul contradict your point by saying that God is not served by human hands? Jesus has human hands.

Acts 17​

24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.​

Sorry you are simply denying the text

John 1:1–15 (ESV) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. 9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’ ”)

plainly we have the word who is God who became flesh

 

[Fred]

1. A monotheist does not call God anyone who is not God.

A monotheist only worships God.
Paul (a monotheist) worshiped Jesus.
Therefore, Jesus is God.

Simple.

 

[Fred]

Acts 3:13

This was already addressed.
You dodged the evidence.

Keep hiding.

 

[Runningman]

Sorry you are simply denying the text

John 1:1–15 (ESV) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light. 9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’ ”)

plainly we have the word who is God who became flesh

Then you're dodging what I wrote because I addressed your text by stating it doesn't say what your premise supposes it says. It doesn't say the word incarnation anywhere there. So I am not inclined to read it the way you're proposing. When the word became flesh it means the word caused flesh to come into existence. Whereas Adam was formed from dust and others by human intercourse, Jesus was formed in Mary's womb by God's power without a male. There is no such idea about God incarnating in the Bible. This chapter is mostly personification anyway. I also might add that 1 John 1:1-2 clarifies that the Word is actually a thing not a person.

 

[Runningman]

A monotheist only worships God.
Paul (a monotheist) worshiped Jesus.
Therefore, Jesus is God.

Simple.

You have a different, non scriptural, concept of God as a being a compound being or multi-person entity. To clarify, do you believe God is a person, status, or thing?

 

[Runningman]

This was already addressed.
You dodged the evidence.

Keep hiding.

Acts 3:13 proves that Jesus and God aren't the same person. He is correct.

 

[TomL]

Then you're dodging what I wrote because I addressed your text by stating it doesn't say what your premise supposes it says. It doesn't say the word incarnation anywhere there. So I am not inclined to read it the way you're proposing. When the word became flesh it means the word cause flesh to come into existence. Whereas Adam was formed from dust and others by human intercourse, Jesus was formed in Mary's womb by God's power without a male. There is no such idea about God incarnating in the Bible. This chapter is mostly personification anyway. I also might add that 1 John 1:1-2 clarifies that the Word is actually a thing not a person.

And I just showed how it does

Sorry no it does not mean the word caused flesh to exist

It states the word became flesh

an entirely different reality

It is also seen in the same passage I have not been able to deal with as far as my objection to your theology that the word was an impersonal thing

Philippians 2:5–7 (ESV) — 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

can an impersonal thing have a mind, count equality as something to be grasped, empty himself, take another form

Your denial of a personal word who became flesh is clearly unbiblical

 

[Runningman]

Huh? Someone is being given glory and being worshipped (δουλευσουσιν) and it ain't the people. It's the Son of Man (Jesus).

Your Judaizing Presuppositions are blinding you to what the verses clearly say.

In the context the people are sovereign. It refers to servitude not worship.

Huh? Where do you see "its kingdom" or "shall serve and obey it" in Dan 7:27???? I see "his kingdom" and "shall serve and obey him". Here is your quote of Dan 7:27:

This is proof you didn't read the comment before replying. Check Daniel 7:18.

Conclusion: You're not only metaphorically visually challenged with your Judaizing presuppositions, you're also physically visually challenged. You are in need of new glasses, my friend.

Conclusion, you have no idea what you're talking about. Read the comment again. It's good.

 

[Runningman]

And I just showed how it does

Sorry no it does not mean the word caused flesh to exist

It states the word became flesh

an entirely different reality

It is also seen in the same passage I have not been able to deal with as far as my objection to your theology that the word was an impersonal thing

Philippians 2:5–7 (ESV) — 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

can an impersonal thing have a mind, count equality empty himself take another form

Your denial of a personal word who became flesh is clearly unbiblical

Oh?

This is from John 1:14:

became
ἐγένετο (egeneto)
Verb - Aorist Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 1096: A prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be, i.e. to become, used with great latitude.

Do yourself a favor and study how this word is used throughout the Bible. It never describes an incarnation. Stop playing dodgeball and address this.

 

[101G]

Nope God is a spirit

John 4:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Look up anthropomorphism

Again there was no Jesus at creation

There was the word

Hello

Karma came back and bit you

GINOLJC, to all.
who do you think the Word is? listen, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and his anthropomorphism description is his OWN ARM ... IN FLESH. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." HIS "OWN ARM IS ME... Meaning him God himself. my God common sense has to kick in somewhere.

and in that flesh God is REVEALED as a man.... Yes as describe in Daniel 7:9 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." and now in Revelation 1:13 "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, (WHITE GARMENT, see Revelation 3:4), and girt about the paps with a golden girdle." Revelation 1:14 "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;" Revelation 1:15 "And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters."

it's just incredible how blind some people are.

101G.

 

[synergy]

Then you're dodging what I wrote because I addressed your text by stating it doesn't say what your premise supposes it says. It doesn't say the word incarnation anywhere there. So I am not inclined to read it the way you're proposing. When the word became flesh it means the word caused flesh to come into existence. Whereas Adam was formed from dust and others by human intercourse, Jesus was formed in Mary's womb by God's power without a male. There is no such idea about God incarnating in the Bible. This chapter is mostly personification anyway. I also might add that 1 John 1:1-2 clarifies that the Word is actually a thing not a person.

Today's lesson on English according to Heretics: "the word became flesh it means the word caused flesh". IOW, the word "became" = the word "caused".

This is a classic example on how the English language is sacrificed on the altar of Unitarian Heresies. Stay tuned for more of these wonderful English word redefinitions brought to you courtesy of your heretical colleagues.

 

[101G]

How can Jesus be the Ancient of Days when he approached Him? Doesn't that sound like one isn't the other?

When you "approach the throne of grace" are you the Ancient of Days? No?

Hebrews 4
16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

this is what 101G been saying, PLEASE LEARN what H259 ECHAD means as well as in the NT G243 Allos, the Another. Oh my, my, my.

Listen, is not the Lord Jesus the Holy Spirit in Flesh? yes, and was not the Lord JESUS, not the Christ, but JESUS the Spirit in the OT without flesh bone and blood? yes, 1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:" 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." is not he Holy Spirit was in THEM? 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

101G.

 

[101G]

@TomL, @Runningman.
let's get biblically learned on the ONE PERSON of God. scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Is this ONE PERSON or two PERSON(S), the First and the Last? examine both scriptures.

now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

ALSO means, "in addition; too". used common sense and figure it out.

101G