The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

[Runningman]

I can't believe it. Pancho reappears.

Yes, Jesus taught us to pray to the Father but He also said, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." John 14:14

Like all things Trinitarians say, that is a misrepresentation of what Jesus said. He didn't say he wanted them to pray to him, but rather while he was with him to ask him for what they want and he would.

Jesus stated to not ask him for anything.

John 16
23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.

In Romans 10:12-13 Paul says "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." What is the name of the Lord? Obviously the Father is Lord and obviously Jesus is Lord.

Lo and behold, we have another proof that Jesus is God! Paul quotes the Old Testament (Joel 2:32) where the Lord is obviously God, the Father. "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13 But in the New Testament Paul uses that same verse to refer to Jesus, who he refers to in verse 9 and verse 17.

"Exhibit Y" Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. This was true under the Old Covenant, where "the Lord" refers to God, and it is also true under the New Covenant, where "the Lord" can and does also refer to Jesus. Therefore Jesus is God.

Huh? That proves Jesus isn't God.

They aren't the same Lord. The Lord you're referring to in Romans 10:12-13 is the Father, YHWH. That isn't Jesus. The one Lord over all is the Father.

Joel 2
32And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance, as the LORD has promised,
among the remnant called by the LORD.

Ephesians 4
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

So nowhere does Jesus tell us that we CANNOT pray to Him, as well as the Father - yes and even the Holy Spirit.

You hypothetically can pray to Jesus, but you don't have a teaching to. We Christians follow Jesus.

Didn't Stephen pray to Jesus, when he was being stoned?
"They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59-60
But he wasn't done praying: "Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord (still speaking to Jesus), do not hold this sin against them!' "

Doesn't say the word prayer. Arguably, speaking to someone in heaven isn't a prayer. Prayer is more nuanced than just speaking. We are communicating, but we are not praying to each other. Make sense?

John and an elder in heaven spoke to one another. We don't randomly make an argument John was praying to an elder, but your argument suggests that is what was happening.

Revelation 7
13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.” So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

There's never an inkling of competition within the Godhead. John tells us that our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. And Paul tells us that we also have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 13:14 So I would find it hard to believe that when Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, He was forbidding us from speaking to the Holy Spirit or Himself.

Jesus didn't teach the conclusion you presented. He already directly said in Matthew 6:6,9 to pray to the Father.

 

[Fred]

Is the Father Lord? Yes?

Post 32 is still there.

 

[Fred]

No, Saying Jesus was being prayed to in Acts 1:24,25 is random nonsense.

Post 2 is still there.

Simple.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

So I would find it hard to believe that when Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, He was forbidding us from speaking to the Holy Spirit or Himself.

I agree with you in that Jesus did not explicitly forbid it.
I don't think it is offensive to God to speak to Jesus, the Holy Spirit, a deceased holy man, our deceased parents, or Virgin Mary... provided that we understand that God is the supreme source of all power and authority.

Many Baha'is speak to Bahaullah in some moments.
I have spoken to some deceased persosn I loved.
Same with hymns. A hymn is a sort of musicalized prayer. Baha'is have beautiful songs that address Bahaullah or Abdul Baha.

My point is that this does not mean that we take Bahaullah as God, or that Catholics take Virgin Mary as God.

The argument I am refuting is that, by speaking to Jesus, the apostles were considering Jesus God, since they had explicitly stated that Jesus was the Son of the God of Israel, not the God of Israel.

 

[David Koberstein]

Not much to comment on due to sheer lack of supporting verses. One may argue to the contrary, but there are no explicit examples where someone taught to pray to Jesus in the Bible. There are no examples of the word "pray" or "prayer" being used in conjunction with communicating to Jesus.

The Bible teaches to pray to God the Father. That's it.

Matthew 6​

6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.​

​

9So then, this is how you should pray:​

‘Our Father in heaven,​

hallowed be Your name.​

Yochanan (John) 14: 13-14

In fact, whatever you ask for in my name, I will do; so that the Father maybe glorified in the Son.
If you ask for something in my name; I will do it.

Yochanan (John) 16: 23-24

When that day comes, you won't ask anything of me! Yes, indeed! I tell you whatever you ask from the Father,
he will give you in my name. Till now you haven't asked for anything in my name . Keep asking, and you will
receive , so that your joy may be complete.

Complete Jewish Bible תנך יהודי שלם

Shalom שלום

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yochanan (John) 14: 13-14

In fact, whatever you ask for in my name, I will do; so that the Father maybe glorified in the Son.
If you ask for something in my name; I will do it.

Yochanan (John) 16: 23-24

When that day comes, you won't ask anything of me! Yes, indeed! I tell you whatever you ask from the Father,
he will give you in my name. Till now you haven't asked for anything in my name . Keep asking, and you will
receive , so that your joy may be complete.

Complete Jewish Bible תנך יהודי שלם

Shalom שלום

I like that "I will do it".....section.

"If you ask for something in my name; I will do it."

Most Unitarians miss that part on purpose....

 

[Runningman]

Yochanan (John) 14: 13-14

In fact, whatever you ask for in my name, I will do; so that the Father maybe glorified in the Son.
If you ask for something in my name; I will do it.

Yochanan (John) 16: 23-24

When that day comes, you won't ask anything of me! Yes, indeed! I tell you whatever you ask from the Father,
he will give you in my name. Till now you haven't asked for anything in my name . Keep asking, and you will
receive , so that your joy may be complete.

Complete Jewish Bible תנך יהודי שלם

Shalom שלום

And all the Unitarians said amen! What's your point? That isn't a prayer to Jesus. He taught to ask from the Father and the Father would do it. Even Jesus had to ask the Father and pray to the Father for the things he wanted.

 

[David Koberstein]

And all the Unitarians said amen! What's your point? That isn't a prayer to Jesus. He taught to ask from the Father and the Father would do it. Even Jesus had to ask the Father and pray to the Father for the things he wanted.

What is a Unitarian? Is it some left wing cult?

 

[Runningman]

What is a Unitarian? Is it some left wing cult?

A Unitarian is someone who believes the Father is the true God and besides Him there are no others. It's ultra-conservative and Biblical while Trinitarianism technically classifies as left wing liberalism since it holds doctrines and creeds above Scripture.

 

[David Koberstein]

A Unitarian is someone who believes the Father is the true God and besides Him there are no others. It's ultra-conservative and Biblical while Trinitarianism technically classifies as left wing liberalism since it holds doctrines and creeds above Scripture.

Sounds like a pagan group to be avoided.

 

[Runningman]

Sounds like a pagan group to be avoided.

Ironically, Trinitarianism came from paganism.

Here's a good source to begin your education about it:

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...arian-gods-influenced-adoption-of-the-trinity

 

[David Koberstein]

I don't need to know anything about Unitarian Universalist. These people know nothing about nothing.

 

[Runningman]

I don't need to know anything about Unitarian Universalist. These people know nothing about nothing.

Biblical Unitarian, not Unitarian Universalism.

 

[David Koberstein]

Biblical Unitarian, not Unitarian Universalism.

Either one is to be avoided. Too many nut jobs.

 

[Runningman]

Too many nut jobs.

Better a nut job than clearly having no good fruit like yourself. Carry on then!

p.s. ... I bet you couldn't defend your faith against me with a Bible.

 

[David Koberstein]

Better a nut job than clearly having no good fruit like yourself. Carry on then!

p.s. ... I bet you couldn't defend your faith against me with a Bible.

I can always defend my Messianic Jewish faith against anyone including infidels like you

 

[David Koberstein]

Better a nut job than clearly having no good fruit like yourself. Carry on then!

p.s. ... I bet you couldn't defend your faith against me with a Bible.

Just because you don't see the word Trinity in the Bible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you can't see electricity or the wind doesn't mean those items do not exist.
Shalom

 

[Runningman]

I can always defend my Messianic Jewish faith against anyone including infidels like you

Your brothers would utterly dominate you in any sort of debate about Orthodox Judaism.

 

[Runningman]

Just because you don't see the word Trinity in the Bible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because you can't see electricity or the wind doesn't mean those items do not exist.
Shalom

You are at the disadvantage attempting to prove a negative.

 

[David Koberstein]

You are at the disadvantage attempting to prove a negative.

No I am at the advantage provng your falsehoods and heresy.