The Bible does not teach to pray to Jesus

Fred said:
Acts 1:24-25 doesn't say "Father" either.

Thanks for making that easy for me.
Click to expand...
Not easy at all.
You still have all the Scriptures that present the Father, who Jesus called "The Only and True God", as the God we should pray.

The difficulty is for you to explain more than a dozen of passages in the light of one single passage, and not the other way around.
 
Fred said:
The evidence I gave from the link in post 2 is still being ignored.
So it is easy for me.
Click to expand...

That post is based on two non-sequitur arguments

  1. That since the apostles prayed addressing Jesus, Jesus is God.
  2. That since Jesus knows the heart of all men, Jesus is God.

FIRST NON-SEQUITUR: Since the apostles prayed addressing Jesus, Jesus is God.

If the apostles indeed addressed Jesus in their prayer, it was the most natural thing to do in that context, as they thought that since Jesus had chosen his 12 apostles, He could guide them, from heaven, to choose whom would replace Judas. Baha'is also sometimes address Baha'u'llah and I have addressed my deceased father. Catholics address Virgin Mary. From that it does not follow (non-sequitur) that the apostles thought Jesus was God, or that Baha'is think Baha'u'llah is God, that I think my deceased father is God, or that Catholics believe Virgin Mary is God.

We have clear evidence that the resurrected Jesus taught their apostles that Jesus God was The Father, the same God that his Jewish disciples believed (John 20:17). We have clear evidence that after the pouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost, the apostles continued to believe that Jesus was NOT the God of Israel, but the son of the God of Israel (Acts 3:13)


SECOND NON-SEQUITUR: Since Jesus knows the heart of all men, Jesus is God.

Jesus made very clear, over and over and over, that all his powers derived from God, His Father. Those powers were not inherent, but conferred.
So, Jesus could examine the hearts of any man in any circumstance to accomplish his mission, without being God Himself.... just in the same way he is said to have calmed down the storm or forgiven sins.
But it is God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Father of Jesus, the Only True God, the ultimate source of all heart-knowing abilities.
This teaching was revealed many times in the Holy Hebraic Scriptures.

Jesus knew that, and that's why He addressed the Pharisees: "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed before men is an abomination before God." (Luke 16:15). This "God" is obviously the Only God his audience knew, YHWH, but if we want it more specific, Jesus said "And your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." (Mat 6:18) Every time Jesus says "God" He refers to the Father, the Only and True God, and NOT to himself (John 17:1-3).

The apostles knew that God, the God of Israel, knows the hearts (Acts 15:8) "After much disputing, Peter rose up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that some time ago God decided among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, approved of them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us." And again, every time the Jewish apostles said "God", they refered to the only God they knew: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is NOT Jesus.

The author of 1 John also makes us know that that it is God the source of All Knowing power: For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart and knows everything. (1 John 3:20).
Who is this God, in the mind of the author? The Father. For him, as for any single writer of an inspired text in the New Testament, "God" means "The Father": "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the one born of the Father." (1 John 5:1)
 
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Pancho Frijoles said:
Jesus knew that, and that's why He addressed the Pharisees: "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed before men is an abomination before God." (Luke 16:15). This "God" is obviously the Only God his audience knew, YHWH, but if we want it more specific, Jesus said "And your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." (Mat 6:18) Every time Jesus says "God" He refers to the Father, the Only and True God, and NOT to himself (John 17:1-3).
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Since the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all "God" would include Jesus.
https://berean-apologetics.communit...he-proper-recipient-of-prayer.527/#post-11356
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
That post is based on two non-sequitur arguments

  1. That since the apostles prayed addressing Jesus, Jesus is God.
  2. That since Jesus knows the heart of all men, Jesus is God.

FIRST NON-SEQUITUR: Since the apostles prayed addressing Jesus, Jesus is God.

If the apostles indeed addressed Jesus in their prayer, it was the most natural thing to do in that context, as they thought that since Jesus had chosen his 12 apostles, He could guide them, from heaven, to choose whom would replace Judas. Baha'is also sometimes address Baha'u'llah and I have addressed my deceased father. Catholics address Virgin Mary. From that it does not follow (non-sequitur) that the apostles thought Jesus was God, or that Baha'is think Baha'u'llah is God, that I think my deceased father is God, or that Catholics believe Virgin Mary is God.

We have clear evidence that the resurrected Jesus taught their apostles that Jesus God was The Father, the same God that his Jewish disciples believed (John 20:17). We have clear evidence that after the pouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost, the apostles continued to believe that Jesus was NOT the God of Israel, but the son of the God of Israel (Acts 3:13)


SECOND NON-SEQUITUR: Since Jesus knows the heart of all men, Jesus is God.

Jesus made very clear, over and over and over, that all his powers derived from God, His Father. Those powers were not inherent, but conferred.
So, Jesus could examine the hearts of any man in any circumstance to accomplish his mission, without being God Himself.... just in the same way he is said to have calmed down the storm or forgiven sins.
But it is God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Father of Jesus, the Only True God, the ultimate source of all heart-knowing abilities.
This teaching was revealed many times in the Holy Hebraic Scriptures.

Jesus knew that, and that's why He addressed the Pharisees: "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For that which is highly esteemed before men is an abomination before God." (Luke 16:15). This "God" is obviously the Only God his audience knew, YHWH, but if we want it more specific, Jesus said "And your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." (Mat 6:18) Every time Jesus says "God" He refers to the Father, the Only and True God, and NOT to himself (John 17:1-3).

The apostles knew that God, the God of Israel, knows the hearts (Acts 15:8) "After much disputing, Peter rose up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that some time ago God decided among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, approved of them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us." And again, every time the Jewish apostles said "God", they refered to the only God they knew: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is NOT Jesus.

The author of 1 John also makes us know that that it is God the source of All Knowing power: For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart and knows everything. (1 John 3:20).
Who is this God, in the mind of the author? The Father. For him, as for any single writer of an inspired text in the New Testament, "God" means "The Father": "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the one born of the Father." (1 John 5:1)
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Excellent points. I would also add that Jesus taught that fasting is only done for the Father as well; there is no teaching about fasting for Jesus in Scripture. He only mentioned the Father as being the one the fasting is obvious to and the one who sees what is done in secret.

Matthew 6
18so that your fasting will not be obvious to men, but only to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
 
Fred said:
Not every time...according to you:
Click to expand...
That's correct.
95 % of the time, if we consider the rogue verses as inspired.
I consider those verses manipulated or erroneously translated, so to me it is 100%.

But again, the difficulty in explaining the 95% if much harder than the difficulty explaining the dissident 5%.
If believing in the deity of Jesus were KEY for salvation, the proportion would have been the other way around.
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
That's correct.
95 % of the time, if we consider the rogue verses as inspired.
I consider those verses manipulated or erroneously translated, so to me it is 100%.
Click to expand...

I don't know why you couldn't have told me that back then.
Slippery.

Pancho Frijoles said:
But again, the difficulty in explaining the 95% if much harder than the difficulty explaining the dissident 5%.
If believing in the deity of Jesus were KEY for salvation, the proportion would have been the other way around.
Click to expand...

That's your confusion.
 
Fred said:
Since the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all "God" would include Jesus.
https://berean-apologetics.communit...he-proper-recipient-of-prayer.527/#post-11356
Click to expand...
No, since Jesus is always talking about God in third person.
Saying that when Jesus talked about "God" in the gospels He referred to the Trinity is ignoring all basic analysis of both the text and historical context. Your argument would not stand a chance in a Trinitarian School of Theology, let alone before a group of Jews.

So let me repeat it for the sake of our readers, even if you prefer to cling to the fallacy: every time Jesus referred to God, He meant exclusively The Father, because of two irrefutable facts.
  1. The Father, in Jesus' own words, is the Only and True God, and His God
  2. The only God his audience knew was The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He never claimed to teach a different God than the one every single prophet had spoken for.
 
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Pancho Frijoles said:
No, since Jesus is always talking about God in third person.
Saying that when Jesus talked about "God" in the gospels He referred to the Trinity is ignoring all basic analysis of both the text and historical context. Your argument would not stand a chance in a Trinitarian School of Theology, let alone before a group of Jews.

So let me repeat it for the sake of our readers, even if you prefer to cling to the fallacy: every time Jesus referred to God, He meant exclusively The Father, because of two irrefutable facts.
  1. The Father, in Jesus' own words, is the Only and True God, and His God
  2. The only God his audience knew was The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He never claimed to teach a different God than the one every single prophet had spoken for.
Click to expand...

You dodged the fact that the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all.
Try again.
 
I can't believe it. Pancho reappears.

Yes, Jesus taught us to pray to the Father but He also said, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." John 14:14

In Romans 10:12-13 Paul says "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." What is the name of the Lord? Obviously the Father is Lord and obviously Jesus is Lord.

Lo and behold, we have another proof that Jesus is God! Paul quotes the Old Testament (Joel 2:32) where the Lord is obviously God, the Father. "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13 But in the New Testament Paul uses that same verse to refer to Jesus, who he refers to in verse 9 and verse 17.

"Exhibit Y" Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. This was true under the Old Covenant, where "the Lord" refers to God, and it is also true under the New Covenant, where "the Lord" can and does also refer to Jesus. Therefore Jesus is God.

So nowhere does Jesus tell us that we CANNOT pray to Him, as well as the Father - yes and even the Holy Spirit.

Didn't Stephen pray to Jesus, when he was being stoned?
"They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Acts 7:59-60
But he wasn't done praying: "Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord (still speaking to Jesus), do not hold this sin against them!' "

There's never an inkling of competition within the Godhead. John tells us that our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. And Paul tells us that we also have fellowship with the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 13:14 So I would find it hard to believe that when Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, He was forbidding us from speaking to the Holy Spirit or Himself.
 
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Pancho Frijoles said:
We have clear evidence that the resurrected Jesus taught their apostles that Jesus God was The Father, the same God that his Jewish disciples believed (John 20:17). We have clear evidence that after the pouring of the Holy Spirit in Pentecost, the apostles continued to believe that Jesus was NOT the God of Israel, but the son of the God of Israel (Acts 3:13)


[Dwight] I see, so Jesus is the King of Israel, Luke 23:3, and yet the Old Testament tells us that ONLY God is the King of Israel, Isaiah 44:6. The apostles knew the Old Testament, so you cannot say that they did not believe that Jesus was the God of Israel. These scriptures confirm what I'm saying, but they go directly against what you're saying. 2 Peter 1:2 Peter says "by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." He knew exactly who Jesus was. You are mistaken.


And again, every time the Jewish apostles said "God", they refered to the only God they knew: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is NOT Jesus.

[Dwight] Really? Apparently you haven't searched the New Testament letters enough (which you agreed to go through together with me, but then you disappeared) to know that Paul said," ... looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." Some have mistakenly said that Paul is referring to God here, not Jesus. But the context makes is crystal clear. "the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory" is a clear reference to the 2nd Coming of Jesus.
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Fred said:
Specific.
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No, Saying Jesus was being prayed to in Acts 1:24,25 is random nonsense. It's unprecedented. To build a doctrine, you should systematically build on the why and how. There should be a foundation first, a teaching, an example, etc. You have nothing. No one did it then randomly out of the blue your argument is they prayed to Jesus and then the church never prayed to Jesus again?

Jesus taught to pray to the Father in Matthew 6:6,9. That's the Biblical precedent. Therefore they prayed to the Father in Acts 1:24,25.
 
Fred said:
You dodged the fact that the Lord Jesus fully knows the hearts of all.
Try again.
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Is the Father Lord? Yes?
Does the Father know the hearts of all? Yes?
Did the Father give Jesus his spiritual gifts, power, authority, etc? Yes?
Was Jesus ever prayed to? No?

What are you even talking about.
 

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